456: Pad Thai

Matthew:

I'm Matthew.

Molly:

And I'm Molly.

Matthew:

And this is Spilled Milk, the show where we cook something delicious, eat it all, and you can't have any.

Molly:

Today, we are talking about Pad Thai.

Matthew:

And again, why is it taking us so long to do this episode? I'm so excited for this. I have so much to say.

Molly:

I would be really excited for this if I were going to get to eat some, but I'm not.

Matthew:

I know, some day.

Molly:

Are you going to eat some over there?

Matthew:

I'm not going to eat some today. I didn't make any before the episode, but I'm going to make some very soon.

Molly:

Okay, okay, like tonight?

Matthew:

Later this week.

Molly:

I have to come over to your house to pick something up later today. You could make some Pad Thai, and run it out to me.

Matthew:

I couldn't because I don't have one of the key ingredients that we'll get to.

Molly:

Fine. Okay. All right. But let's start on memory lane.

Matthew:

Okay. This show is about fantasy, and wish fulfillment, and eating vicariously. Yes. When you come over, I'm going to present you with fresh from the walk Pad Thai.

Molly:

I was describing the show to someone this morning. And I almost said it's a comedy podcast about food. But instead, I said it's a podcast about wish fulfillment. I have a hard time even saying it right now. Yeah. All right, okay. Matthew, let's go down memory lane.

Matthew:

Okay. Before we do that, I have an important update on something from the previous episode, which is we did a kohlrabi episode recently. And this week, there's going to be a purple kohlrabi in my CSA box.

Molly:

Oh, that is great news. I have really come to love kohlrabi. That is what this CSA season has done for me.

Matthew:

So, this is my promise to you, Molly, and you, the listener, I'm going to keep updating you on this story. By next time we tape, I think I will have eaten the kohlrabi, and you're going to hear about it.

Molly:

Oh my God. I'm so excited. I hope everybody follows Matthew on Twitter, where he'll be posting bite-by-bite comments. That's @matthewamsterburton on Twitter.

Matthew:

That's not correct. It's at @mamster on Twitter. And that's where I'll be live tweeting by kohlrabi.

Molly:

Okay, all right, fine, @mamster, whatever. Okay. I'm going to start on memory lane.

Matthew:

Please do.

Molly:

So, my memory lane is very short, all right. I think growing up, I never had Pad Thai. In fact, I remember the first Thai food that I remember having. I remember the first Thai food that I remember having. And it was at, I believe, Taste of Siam on 23rd in Oklahoma City, right near where we stayed on our corporate retreat in 2019.

Matthew:

Oh, so somewhere in your Ponyboy bar, which probably didn't exist at the time.

Molly:

Yes. That's correct. And I remember that was the first place I ever had Thai food, but I don't think I had Pad Thai, and there's that. Yeah. And then, I moved to Seattle, and I remember when this Thai restaurant called May opened on 45th in Wallingford on Vashon.

Matthew:

It was a big deal restaurant opening, largely because they had an amazing building, and decor.

Molly:

Yes, yes. They had brought in, I don't know if it's like the remnants of a temple or what, but it is this beautiful carved wood storefront that they brought in from Thailand. One of the things that they are known for, aside from just having very good food in general, is their Pad Thai, which is one of their signatures. And they serve it on a banana leaf, right?

Matthew:

Yeah. And with banana blossom as an edible garnish.

Molly:

Oh, right.

Matthew:

Yes.

Molly:

And I remember the very first time I ate there, they mixed it up tableside, which I don't think they do anymore.

Matthew:

Oh, I remember that too. I think I reviewed this place for the Seattle Times when it opened.

Molly:

Maybe that's even how I learned about it, Matthew.

Matthew:

Oh, that's possible.

Molly:

Yeah. Anyway, it now seems to me, are there still places that are doing things tableside like, czar salad, or guacamole, or Bananas Foster?

Matthew:

Right now, probably and I hope not.

Molly:

Probably.

Matthew:

But in the future, and within the last six months, I think yes.

Molly:

I think that we should bring back the tableside cooking.

Matthew:

Well, and flambéing especially. I know we've talked about this a lot, especially on that banana episode where we ate Bananas Foster. But they're-

Molly:

So good.

Matthew:

... the flambé pendulum has swung too far in the other direction, I think.

Molly:

It absolutely has. Bring it back at least a little bit this way.

Matthew:

Right. So, let the flames begin, as they say.

Molly:

Wait, Matthew, hold on. Wait a minute. This is a bit of a tangent, but I've been going through-

Matthew:

Oh, not on this show, we don't.

Molly:

I've been having a bit of the COVID blues this week.

Matthew:

Sure.

Molly:

The pendulum has swung back toward the blues for me this week, the COVID pendulum.

Matthew:

Yes, I know.

Molly:

God, as we were just talking about tableside cooking, I remembered when you and I went out, and had Korean barbecue for lunch.

Matthew:

I know.

Molly:

Only, my God, was it even six months ago?

Matthew:

It was less than six months ago, I think. That may have been the last time we went out for lunch.

Molly:

Oh my God, I miss it so much. Do you remember all that meat we ate?

Matthew:

And then, there's still so much leftover.

Molly:

There was still so much meat leftover. It was so good. And all the, oh my God, the kimchi, and oh God, it was so smoky in there.

Matthew:

Yep.

Molly:

Right over the flames.

Matthew:

Yeah, yes.

Molly:

It was very well ventilated in there.

Matthew:

Yeah. That was an inverted flambé experience and that the flames were under the food.

Molly:

Yeah. Anyway, I missed that.

Matthew:

I know. Okay. Someday, you and I are going to be able to go for an inverted flambé again, I promise.

Molly:

Someday, we might be able to eat a meal together again.

Matthew:

Okay.

Molly:

Okay. Take me down your memory lane.

Matthew:

I think I probably had Pad Thai once or twice as a kid. There are local Thai place in Portland, it was called Tara Thai House, I think. But I really remember having it in Claremont. Well, actually, I think the restaurant was in Pomona, technically, the Thai cafe in Pomona when I was in college. But I didn't really get obsessed with Pad Thai until 1996. And I wrote on the agenda-

Molly:

I feel a nostalgia trip coming on.

Matthew:

... Q47 minute 90s nostalgia trip. So, there was this Thai restaurant on Broadway in Seattle that we lived very, very close to called Siam on Broadway. It closed in 2009. And from-

Molly:

Is it that long ago? I remember the front of it.

Matthew:

Oh, yeah, yeah. Because it closed, and then I think Poppy is there now. Or well, no, Poppy isn't there now because Poppy closed.

Molly:

No, Poppy is gone.

Matthew:

That Italian place is there now.

Molly:

That Italian place. That's meaningful to me. Altura-

Matthew:

No.

Molly:

No.

Matthew:

It's called Carrello. And they've also been doing burgers outside the restaurant from Wednesday to Sunday, very tasty.

Molly:

Oh, cool. Okay.

Matthew:

Okay. So, anyway, yes, the point is Siam on Broadway closed in 2009. So, from 1996 to 2009, I definitely ate the Pad Thai at least once a week, and sometimes twice.

Molly:

Really?

Matthew:

You do the math, but-

Molly:

I don't think I eat anything that much. That must have been so good. I'm sad that I missed it.

Matthew:

I love that stuff. So, you can still get it. I'm not sure if you can get it now. But in normal times, you could still get it at Siam on Lake Union, their sister restaurant, and it was the same.

Molly:

Do you ever order it now?

Matthew:

I can't think of the last time I went there, like a couple years ago. But whenever I find myself needing lunch on East Lake, that's where I would go. So, yes, and it's great.

Molly:

Okay. Cool, great.

Matthew:

My standard order there was Pad Thai beef, four stars, lots of sauce, which feels like a very American way to order it, and it is. And the sauce had tomato paste in it, which tomato paste or ketchup is pretty common as an ingredient in American style Pad Thai. And it's not bad, but it's usually substituting for something that's better if you can get it, which you can.

Molly:

Okay. I'm with you.

Matthew:

Okay. And we'll get to that.

Molly:

Well, what I was really thinking is the little ditty nice work, if you can get it, and you can get it if you try, or [inaudible 00:08:28].

Matthew:

Yeah, you can get it if you really want.

Molly:

You can get it if you really want if you just try, try and try, try and try. You'll succeed at last.

Matthew:

Is that song from a musical or something?

Molly:

I don't member what is that from.

Matthew:

Okay. Listeners.

Molly:

Oh, no, that's Jimmy Cliff.

Matthew:

Oh, yeah, yeah, of course.

Molly:

Oh my God, that whole album, it's got pressure drop on it. Good Lord. We're going to figure this out.

Matthew:

Is it The Harder They Come soundtrack?

Molly:

The Harder They Come. Yes. Many Rivers To Cross, all the things. I loved that album.

Matthew:

Have you seen the movie?

Molly:

I haven't seen the movie.

Matthew:

It's a pretty dark movie. It's about how Jimmy Cliff tries to make it like, go legitimate, and make it in the music industry, and it doesn't go well. But it's a good movie, and the music is great, of course. I watched it in a Caribbean literature class that I took in college.

Molly:

Fantastic. I was-

Matthew:

Wow. There's so much stuff about Pad Thai that we need to talk about. I might have to try bring in the tangents.

Molly:

I'm scrolling through Jimmy Cliff's discography.

Matthew:

Okay, you do that. I'll keep talking about Pad Thai. Yeah. So, if we do the math, how many weeks is it from 1996 to 2009? So, it's like 13 or 14 years.

Molly:

Yeah, times 52.

Matthew:

So, a bunch of, that's a lot of Pad Thai. And it was like a big serving, I would eat it for two lunches, or dinner and a lunch.

Molly:

Where was Laurie this whole time?

Matthew:

I don't know if we've met yet. We did get married in February of '96, but-

Molly:

But maybe you hadn't met yet.

Matthew:

Mostly, I just remember a lot of spicy noodles from this time. I think she was busy with some other stuff.

Molly:

Yeah, fair enough. Fair enough. Yeah. I think it's healthy in a marriage to have a certain period of time when you've never met your spouse before. I'm not sure what it looks like, but I'm working it out.

Matthew:

You got that for the John Gottman newsletter, right?

Molly:

Yeah, yeah. The marriage minute, I get it. I signed up-

Matthew:

Gottman is getting real weird, quarantine, and giving advice that is not physically possible to follow.

Molly:

But by God, I am trying over here.

Matthew:

Yes. Okay. So, are we supposed to like pretend we never met? No, no, you have to actually fall into some time vortex.

Molly:

Okay. Matthew, let's get back to this. Okay. So, then, then, after eating all of that Siam on Broadway Pad Thai, you actually went to Thailand?

Matthew:

Yes. I went in 2000 and 2001. Thailand is great. If we're ever able to travel again, I would like to go back. I hate the heat. But everything else about it was wonderful. So, I ate Pad Thai from street vendors and at restaurants. I remember one that was wrapped, served wrapped in an omelet, which is a way some places serve it, which is great. And it was awesome. And I love that you could get Pad Thai on the street for sometimes like 75 cents.

Matthew:

And then, I came back to Seattle and went back to my extra saucy Pad Thai beef at Siam on Broadway for a while. And I would periodically try, and make it at home, and it would never come out great. And I didn't really start to understand what dish it is, and how to make it until the last few months when I started craving it a lot.

Molly:

Hold on, can we focus on the street vendors?

Matthew:

Yeah.

Molly:

If you were someone as you are, who knew-

Matthew:

I am someone. I learned this from the John Gottman newsletter.

Molly:

But your spouse is not someone yet.

Matthew:

Not yet.

Molly:

Matthew, hold on. As an American who had grown up eating Pad Thai in the US, how was it to then have it at a street vendor? Could you even recognize it as the same dish?

Matthew:

Yes, absolutely. So, the Pad Thai that I had in Thailand reminded me of some of the Pad Thai that I had in the US. So, the things I would generalize, and say when you get it in Thailand, it is much less likely if ever to have tomato paste, or ketchup, and more likely to be seasoned with tamarind paste.

Matthew:

Rather than scallions, it is more likely to have garlic chives. Other than that, it's a dish that sometimes gets represented well in Thai-American restaurants, and sometimes not, and there's all sorts of gradations. And even the overly sweet tomatoey American style, I still enjoy a lot.

Molly:

Me too, Let's be honest, I probably have never had anything but that.

Matthew:

Well, someday, when you can come to my house, you will.

Molly:

Okay. All right. So, Matthew, let's get to the heart of what this is because I'm curious about what makes it, or what's made it tricky for you to make in your home kitchen.

Matthew:

Yeah. I'm so excited to talk about this. Pad Thai is a rice noodle stir fry with a sweet and sour sauce, eggs, and lots of tasty flavorful bits.

Molly:

I think of this is very Matthew Amster-Burton writing, tasty flavorful bits.

Matthew:

Yeah. I am known, if I was to sum up my writing-

Molly:

You're known for your tasty flavorful bits.

Matthew:

Yeah. I'd sum up my personality, it would be lots of tasty flavorful bits once you get to know me.

Molly:

Yeah. But at the first, at the beginning, it's just like a whole bunch of crunchy undercooked stuff.

Matthew:

Yeah. That's true. I do present a crunchy undercooked exterior. But once you've cracked through that, there's a lot of bits, more bits than you would expect.

Molly:

Okay. Okay. All right, go on.

Matthew:

Again, this is advice that I got from John Gottman, present your spouse with more bits than they would expect. I don't know what that means.

Molly:

Okay. Under promise and over deliver on the bits.

Matthew:

Exactly. That's exactly right. Very important in a long-term relationship. Okay. If you've had Pad Thai that is too sweet, it is probably because they didn't use enough tamarind, and we'll get into what tamarind is, and how to use it. But it is a dish that I think is supposed to be very sweet and very sour. So, when you see them making it like, "Wow, did I go down a YouTube rabbit hole of watching videos of Thai street vendors making Pad Thai."

Matthew:

They will cook, make up the seasonings, add the seasonings as they go, just dip their ladle into the sugar, into the tamarind paste, and just make it as they go because they've made it many times. And you can see, they always put in a lot of sugar, and a lot of souring agent, usually tamarind.

Molly:

Okay. Go on, keep talking.

Matthew:

All right.

Molly:

This is so pleasant.

Matthew:

Can we talk about the history of Pad Thai because it is odd?

Molly:

Please, please, I'm very curious about this.

Matthew:

So, Thailand is a country with a long history, and a proud history of never being colonized. And there are dishes that go back centuries that are well documented in Thai history. Pad Thai is not one of those. Pad Thai dates to the 1930s. And as far as I can tell, even though this story is, there's a lot about it that's too good to be true.

Matthew:

Everyone seems to agree that it was promoted as a nationalist project by Field Marshal Phibunsongkhram, who was the military dictator of Thailand from 1938 to 1944, and that again, from '48 to '57. The recipe may have been developed by a cook in his house. It's not clear. A lot of history seemed to suggest that the dictator personally came up with this noodle dish, which I definitely don't believe. But he definitely had a big part in promoting it.

Molly:

Wait, hold on. Yeah. Tell me about Pad Thai as a nationalist project.

Matthew:

Right. So, Thailand was a very different country after the rule of Field Marshal Phibun. For one thing, he changed the name of the country from Siam to Thailand. He did a lot of things. He was a hugely influential leader. Many, if not most of the things he did were bad because he was a military dictator.

Matthew:

But it was the beginning of the promotion of Thai food as a national cuisine, and a source of national pride and unity. And Pad Thai was a big part of that because I read a few articles about Pad Thai that will link to, one of them was called Pad Thai as the most misunderstood noodle by Pitchaya Sudbanthad in The Morning News, and one was by Alexandra Greeley in Gastronomica called finding Pad Thai.

Matthew:

And she did an extensive interview with Phibunsongkhram's son. And in the article, she says to help popularize the new noodle dish, the government supplied people with a basic recipe for Pad Thai, then encouraged vendors to make use of wheeled noodle carts like mobile cook stalls equipped with a heat source, and compartments to hold ingredients, and cooking utensils to sell the dish on Bangkok streets. And you can still see this exact style of noodle cards.

Molly:

And why doesn't our government do nice things like that?

Matthew:

Yeah. I know what you mean.

Molly:

Why don't we supply people with recipes, and encourage vendors to use certain kinds of noodle carts? Instead, I don't even want to talk about-

Matthew:

Yeah. I don't want to talk like, of the things the federal government could send to our cities. This would be a better fit.

Molly:

Yeah. Why don't you send some recipes?

Matthew:

Yes. The blog, SheSimmers also has an amazing five-part series on Pad Thai. We'll link to that also. But yeah, basically, this dish was unknown in Thailand. And then, suddenly, it was everywhere. And then, as the promotion of Thai food internationally became a long-running project of the Thai government, and Tourism Board and stuff. Suddenly, it was everywhere in the world. Like I said, I watched a lot of YouTube videos.

Matthew:

So, I got to this point a couple months ago, where I was like, I really want to be eating pot Thai more often. I don't want to be doing a ton of takeout. I need to get back into making this at home, and figure out what I'm doing wrong. Because when I'd make it, the noodles would all clump together, or the eggs would be overcooked, or it would be too soggy or dry. And it was never quite what I was looking for.

Molly:

Was there a time in the past when you had really dialed in your Pad Thai, and then you just stopped making it?

Matthew:

No.

Molly:

Okay. So, you always were a subpar Pad Thai maker.

Matthew:

I was always a subpar Pad Thai maker. I didn't really get until watching it this time around. I had two aha moments. One is that when you watch street vendors make it in Bangkok, there are a couple of different styles that fall on a continuum. And there is a dry style where they are cooking it really hot, and cooking the moisture out really fast from the sauce. But there's also and probably more common, a wet style, where you're making a large amount at once. And it's as much of a stew as a stir fry.

Molly:

Really?

Matthew:

Yeah. So, there's a lot of sauce going in.

Molly:

So, it has that much liquid.

Matthew:

Yeah. So, you see the noodle swimming in liquid, and there's a video I watched where they cracked two dozen eggs into this huge wok. And so, there's a huge amount of liquid going on, but it cooks down into something that's slurpable.

Molly:

Wow.

Matthew:

And so, I'm like, "Okay, it's okay, I don't have to keep everything moving superfast, like a quick stir fry in order to make this dish good." And probably in fact, the juicy saucy Pad Thai that I used to enjoy at Siam on Broadway was probably made in a more wet style.

Molly:

Okay. I don't think I've ever had that. I think I've only had more of a slick, noodle slicked with sauce.

Matthew:

Yes. And the other thing I learned, and was really like, brought home for me after I read the series by Leela on SheSimmers is that, unlike, I think especially in western cooking, and especially in American recipe writing, there is this sense that if you get the perfect recipe for something, then you'll be able to make it right on the first try. And that's the cook's illustrated bottle, right?

Molly:

I would say that is the general promise of American cookbooks.

Matthew:

Yeah. Well, Pad Thai is not like that. And the reason is, in order to make a great Pad Thai, you have to get the noodles to the right texture. If they're overcooked and soggy, it's going to suck. If they're undercooked and chewy, it's going to suck. The noodle texture is the whole dish. And in order to do that, you have to practice.

Matthew:

You have to know what's going to happen when you've soaked the noodles for a certain amount of time. Then, you're going to be adding liquid in the form of sauce and eggs. You're going to be cooking it for a certain amount of time. And the noodles need to come out at the right texture when you're done. And no recipe can begin to control for all of the variables there.

Molly:

This sounds a lot like an omelet, learning to make a good omelet.

Matthew:

It is like learning to make a good omelet. Your first omelet is going to be bad, and your first Pad Thai-

Molly:

Probably your first-

Matthew:

Yeah.

Molly:

... your first dozen omelet, dozen omelet. Your first dozen omelet are going to be very bad. I am really losing my ability to speak.

Matthew:

No, no. It's okay Jar Jar.

Molly:

Your first dozen omelets are going to be bad.

Matthew:

Our guest of this week is Jar Jar Binks. It is such an honor to have you from... I'm going to say my favorite movie, The Phantom Menace.

Molly:

I'm Jar Jar Binks and I love Pad Thai.

Matthew:

It sounded like you're saying I'm Jar Jar Binks and I endorse this message, or I'm putting his message.

Molly:

Okay. Anyway, no, I think that when people make omelets they are told like, prepare for tears, prepare for frustration. This is going to be a disaster. It's all in the flick of the wrist. No, it's all in the heat of the pan. It's all in the amount of butter you use. No, it's all in mastering all of it.

Matthew:

Right. Anybody who is willing to put in the time and the tears to make a couple dozen shitty omelets is going to learn how to make good omelets. It's not a skill that's difficult. It's just a skill that you have to practice, and Pad Thai is the same thing.

Molly:

Okay, okay. I love this.

Matthew:

And so, my first couple, not very good. By the third time, I was like, "Okay, I'm getting there."

Molly:

And so, it was less about the proportion of ingredients in the sauce, and more about the actual technique. When you say that the first attempts were not very good, it wasn't about the seasoning.

Matthew:

It wasn't about the seasoning. Although, one thing I did wrong was that in my eagerness to make some Pad Thai as quickly as possible, I bought some Pad Thai sauce in a jar at QFC, no flavor at all. Don't do that.

Molly:

Hot tip. That is a hot tip. Great.

Matthew:

Yeah. So, I found this so interesting once I realized what had happened, and that it's okay for there to be a dish that you're not going to get right on the first try. I find this idea liberating.

Molly:

Yeah. There is something really nice about there is a lot of freedom in pessimism.

Matthew:

Yes, there is. And I don't know, yeah, low expectations. When it comes to the amount of bits you're going to be presenting to your spouse, or the texture of your noodle.

Molly:

I feel like I'm presenting very few bits to my spouse right now. I'm in a bit less time.

Matthew:

Oh no. It's something about 8-bit and 16-bit, never mind, consoles. Okay.

Molly:

All right, go on.

Matthew:

So, the recipe that I've been making, which we will link to. Producer Abby is going to be pulling so many links for this show, is from Pailin, has a YouTube channel called Hot Thai Kitchen. Her Pad Thai recipe is the place to go.

Molly:

How did you choose it?

Matthew:

I chose it after watching a bunch of videos, and a lot of the videos I watched were not recipes. They were just like let's see how this cook in Thailand makes their Pad Thai. But this was the best of the recipe videos that I watched. Once I saw it, I was like, "Okay, this person is telling me what I need to know about the ingredients, and about the technique, and how to make extra sauce, and have it ready for next time." The recipe is four pages long when you print it out, but most of it is getting you in the right-

Molly:

Bolstering your courage.

Matthew:

Bolstering your courage and your pantry.

Molly:

Okay.

Matthew:

How about this? How about if we drop in an interview segment of a little chat that I had with Pailin from Hot Thai Kitchen and the YouTube channel Pailin's Kitchen?

Molly:

Oh, let's do it.

Matthew:

So, did you grow up eating Pad Thai?

Pailin Chongchitnant:

Yes. However, not as often as one might think.

Matthew:

Yeah, I know. In America, of course, in North America, it's become synonymous with Thai food, and elevated to a level that I assume it's not quite as dominant in Thailand.

Pailin Chongchitnant:

Yeah. It's like, if you were to want Pad Thai, you'd actually have to look for it. It's not like you can just walk down any street, go to any restaurant, and have it. You'd have to know where offers Pad Thai before you go. You know what I mean?

Matthew:

Yeah, yeah.

Pailin Chongchitnant:

It's not that it's hard to find. It's not, but it's also not anywhere.

Matthew:

Right. I've been to Thailand a couple of times, but it was a long time ago. But I remember that restaurants specialize in Thailand much more like, you go to a Thai restaurant in North America. And every Thai dish from every region is on the menu. And that's not what I found when I went to Thailand. And it was much more satisfying to go into a place that specialized in a particular dish.

Pailin Chongchitnant:

Yeah, totally. And you know what, Pad Thai is one of those things that even in Thailand, it's hard to find a really good one. It's not an easy dish to make well.

Matthew:

Yes. Okay. This is something I want to talk to you about. So, let's just jump right into this because I was so interested. When we got into quarantine, and I found myself really missing Pad Thai because it was one of my favorite takeout dishes, and we weren't doing much takeout. And I'm like, "Okay, I've made this a couple times before.

Matthew:

It didn't come out very well. And I'm going to really try and get good at this." And I found that it really took some practice. I'm super happy with the pad Thai that I'm making now. But the thing that I found took the most practice was getting the noodle texture right.

Pailin Chongchitnant:

Yes, yes. That's the biggest thing that most people find is the problem.

Matthew:

Yeah. So, how do you suggest that we approach this when we're learning to make this dish?

Pailin Chongchitnant:

So, I think the texture, the biggest issue is it's too mushy.

Matthew:

Yes.

Pailin Chongchitnant:

Right. That's the big thing. And I think my biggest suggestion is don't boil the noodles. And if you've seen my video, you know that I don't boil the noodles. I soak, and then take the soaked noodles right into the pan. And then, you add just enough liquid in the sauce to cook the noodles. What a lot of people do though is they'll buy the noodles, they'll follow the package instructions, and boil it.

Pailin Chongchitnant:

And then, they drain it, put it in the pan. By that time, the noodle is completely saturated with water, then you add sauce. And most peoples also, the stove is not very strong at home. And so, the noodles are sitting there simmering, and stewing in all that liquid, and then it's soggy. So, if you can avoid boiling that, and you know what, it's so much easier too, you don't have to boil a pot of water.

Pailin Chongchitnant:

You just soak, throw it in, add the right amount of sauce. And then, what might happen in that case is the noodles become a little too chewy. But that's okay, because that's an easy problem to solve. You just add a little bit more water, cook it a little longer. It's the other problem that you can't fix.

Matthew:

Yes, yeah. The thing that I found so interesting, as I was learning to make it was that, unlike with some stir fry dishes, there's really an opportunity to pause, and reflect and say, "Okay, my noodles are not quite where they need to be, all they need is a little more water, and more time, and it's going to come out fine."

Pailin Chongchitnant:

Yes. And I will add also, that even though I provide exact gram measurements of noodles, and water and everything, every brand of noodles is a little different. So, you can't just throw away your judgment. And this applies to any recipe. You can follow it to the tee. But always remember that your situations, your exact ingredients, your exact stove is not the same as the person who wrote that recipe.

Pailin Chongchitnant:

So, you still have to use your own judgment. For example, I recently tried a brand of rice noodles, and it was thinner than the brand that I'm used to. Which means that it ended up being a little softer, and not as chewy as I like to. So, if you've tried a recipe and that's what happens, then you just reduce the amount of liquid the next time you try it, or you soak it in less time. So, there's always that element as well.

Matthew:

It's interesting that I think North American cooks really want a perfect recipe that like, I follow this, and it tells me exactly what to do, and it's going to come out perfect the first time. But Pad Thai seems like is a dish that really benefits from making over, and over, and practicing.

Pailin Chongchitnant:

Yes practicing with your exact ingredients. And also, the stove is another thing. Your pan is another thing. If you're working with a really weak stove, you're going to have a lot more liquid than someone who's working with a really high BTU stove, and a lot of evaporation that's happening. So, again, you can't throw away your adjustment. If you follow exactly, and it comes out soggy, well, guess what you're going to do next time.

Matthew:

Yeah.

Pailin Chongchitnant:

And it's funny you say that that people want exact recipes. And I see also, the opposite end of that is people will tell me, "I followed your recipe, and it didn't work." And I've trained myself to ask them, "So, what did you do differently?" And then, without fail, they will say, "Well, I did this, and this, and this, and this."

Pailin Chongchitnant:

And then, "Well, okay. You didn't quite follow the recipe, but let me figure this out with you." And also, I want to add that most Thai restaurants in America, and in Canada, too, I should add, because that's where I am. The potpie is not the way it should be.

Matthew:

In what ways?

Pailin Chongchitnant:

In every way. I joke about this with my brother who lives in LA, and it's like, every time we try out a new Thai restaurant, we want to try the Pad Thai just so that we can judge how good they are. But at the same time, it's almost the worst dish to pick because chances are it's not going to be very good. Because peptide in its very authentic form is complex, as you saw, it's a lot of different ingredients.

Pailin Chongchitnant:

You got to do a lot of sourcing. And it's not easy to make well, but most restaurants have to have it because people expect them to have it. So, even if this is not something that they're good at, they have to put some type of Pad Thai on the menu, otherwise people are going to be like, "Well, what's going on? Why don't you have Pad Thai on the menu?"

Pailin Chongchitnant:

So, you see things like people using white sugar because it's cheaper, or people using vinegar, again, because it's cheaper. Vinegar in combination with tamarind, but vinegar has no flavor. Tamarind is so much more richer in flavor. And then, you see the ketchup, obviously. If the Pad Thai is red, it probably has ketchup, or I've seen paprika.

Pailin Chongchitnant:

People do all sorts of things to make it a little more vibrant, or they make it really sweet. This is the thing. They make it really sweet in restaurants, and it shouldn't be like that. It should be a good balance of sweet, salty, and sour. And so, one thing is if you've tried Pad Thai in a Thai restaurant, and you don't like it, try making it from my recipe, and see if you still don't like it.

Matthew:

Yes, I completely agree with this. I also endorse that. So where can people find you online?

Pailin Chongchitnant:

So, people can find me online on YouTube, is my main platform. If you look up Pailin's Kitchen, or Hot Thai Kitchen, I will come up. My website is hotthaikitchen.com. And on social media, I am Hot Thai Kitchen everywhere.

Matthew:

Well, Pailin Chongchitnant, thank you so much for being on Spilled Milk. We really appreciate your expertise.

Pailin Chongchitnant:

You pronounced that so well.

Matthew:

Thank you. Could you tell I hesitated for just a moment before saying it?

Pailin Chongchitnant:

Yes, yes. But you did that so well.

Matthew:

Thank you. I really appreciate that.

Molly:

All right. So, what do we need to make Pad Thai? What goes into making the right tasting sauce? And also, where did you get all this stuff? Did you get it all from Uwajimaya?

Matthew:

Yes.

Molly:

What did you do?

Matthew:

I got everything from Uwajimaya. There was one common Pad Thai ingredient that I was not able to get from Uwajimaya, and I've put in a mail order, and I'm still waiting on that. But the good thing about Pad Thai is we talked about the tasty bits, probably in way too much detail. But you want to have those tasty bits in there like dried shrimp, dried radish, little bits of pressed tofu, peanuts, red chili flakes.

Matthew:

The good news is there're so many of those bits that you need to have some of them, but you don't need to have all of them, garlic chives or scallions. And pretty much any subset is going to do the job within reason.

Molly:

Okay, okay. Wow, you heard it here first, people.

Matthew:

That any subset will do the job?

Molly:

Yeah. And I think we should take that out of context, just any subset.

Matthew:

Yeah. If you present your partner with just like one-

Molly:

One bit.

Matthew:

I fucking failed on this joke.

Molly:

Okay. All right. Okay, let's-

Matthew:

I did not have the guts to present you with this dumb joke about how you're going to serve up one testicle for your partner and-

Molly:

All right. Okay, okay. So, let's talk about the basics.

Matthew:

Serve up was not the right term to use there because that implies-

Molly:

Tossing in the air and hitting it really hard?

Matthew:

Oh, I'm thinking that it was cooked.

Molly:

Oh, okay. All right. Matthew, here we go. I was thinking it was a volleyball.

Matthew:

No, that's good. And I bet if you have one testicle that's the size of a volleyball, you need to seek medical attention immediately.

Molly:

All right. So, here's what you need.

Matthew:

If they're both the size of volleyballs, that's fine. It's only the unevenness. Okay. Here's what you'll need to make Pad Thai, and I recommend if you... okay, once you've gotten-

Molly:

I'm trying to imagine you walking out to get groceries-

Matthew:

Which is a real bearer, right? Okay. Once you have addressed any asymmetric gonad situation, then you can start laying out a supply of Pad Thai ingredients, and I highly recommend ordering from importfood.com. They have been in the Thai ingredient business forever, and they're great. So, here's what you'll need. Are you ready?

Molly:

I'm ready.

Matthew:

Okay. Dried rice noodles. These are called Kwyteiyw in Thai, and you buy them in a one-pound cellophane wrap pack, and I think two ounces of dried noodles per serving is perfect. So-

Molly:

No.

Matthew:

Yes?

Molly:

Hold on. Wait, these come in different thicknesses, does Kwyteiyw, does that imply a certain thickness?

Matthew:

It doesn't. So, they come in certain widths, especially because they're a flat noodle-

Molly:

That's what I mean. Sorry, that's what I mean.

Matthew:

... and the one you want is linguini width.

Molly:

That's what I'm picturing. Okay, great.

Matthew:

So, not vermicelli definitely, not the super wide ones. You'll recognize it. If you order it online from ImportFood, they'll tell you which one to get. If you're at a grocery store, and looking at the rice noodles, you will recognize it from having eaten Pad Thai in the past.

Molly:

Perfect.

Matthew:

Palm sugar, you can substitute white or brown sugar, but palm sugar is great. It's made from palm tree sap.

Molly:

Cool.

Matthew:

And it comes in this little, I was going to say pellets, but that implies smaller, like pox. The texture has re slightly dried up brown sugar, and it's really satisfying to take one of these pucks and like shave off bits. There's that word again, slices from it with a knife.

Molly:

Go on.

Matthew:

Okay. Fish sauce, you can definitely order this online, but it's probably also available at your local supermarket, even if it's not an Asian supermarket.

Molly:

Do you have a preferred brand?

Matthew:

I like Squid brand, but I've been buying just what I can get lately, and there definitely are different grades of fish sauce. But for something like this where you're using it in a recipe with lots of other flavorful ingredients, I'm not saying the quality doesn't matter, but any fish sauce you can turn up is also going to be fine.

Molly:

Sure, okay. And then, tamarind paste. So, a tamarind paste, I've seen come in different formats. What are we talking about here?

Matthew:

The one you want is the square block. It's a plastic wrapped block of tamarind paste, which it's this sweet and sour paste that's been scooped out of these pods. It's a bean, but instead of eating the beans or the pod like you do with green beans, you eat the pulp that's around the beans.

Molly:

Okay. And am I correct, so some of these different types of tamarind come with what looks like stuff, it looks like there is some solid or semisolid mixed in with it that you might need to strain out, is that the case here?

Matthew:

That is the case. So, what you do is you cut off a chunk of this, and this is one of the variables that you can't really control in a recipe because you're going to cut off a chunk of a certain size, and then you're going to reconstitute it in boiling hot water, and smoosh it around with a spoon, and then strain it so that the seeds and fleshy parts stay behind.

Matthew:

And that's how you make your tamarind water or tamarind seasoning for the sauce. Shallots, I think are really important. You certainly could substitute a yellow onion, but shallots are great, and you can probably get them at your supermarket.

Matthew:

So, those I think are the five most important things. If you want to make a vegetarian Pad Thai, you can substitute soy sauce and miso for the fish sauce, but other than that, I think rice noodles, palm sugar, fish sauce, tamarind paste, shallots. Get those things okay.

Molly:

Okay.

Matthew:

Okay.

Molly:

Great. Okay.

Matthew:

Next. We now are really getting into the bits. Sweet preserved radish, it is like a salted preserved daikon radish. And it's shaped like a tube sock. You can buy it whole dry-

Molly:

It's shaped like a tube sock.

Matthew:

Not even a tube sock. You know what, it's shaped like-

Molly:

You mean, is it hollow on the inside?

Matthew:

It's hollow on the inside. It's shaped like a human appendix.

Molly:

Wait a minute. We're talking about the sweet preserved radish, right?

Matthew:

Yeah. It's-

Molly:

I'm trying to picture this.

Matthew:

It's such a cool ingredient. It's smaller than a tube sock. When the radish dries, it's like a long tubular vegetable. And then, it dries into this small appendix pita pocket type of shape, and you chop it up into little bits, or you can also sometimes buy it chopped. And it adds la saltiness, and a sweetness, and a funkiness. And I think this is a thing you see a lot with in Thai food is like getting a lot of flavorful bits into one mouthful is a big part of Thai cuisine, and a great part.

Molly:

Yes. I would say the greatest part of any cuisine.

Matthew:

Yeah. I'm not just being silly. I think this is really having super intensely flavorful bits, and there are lots of types of dishes like dips, and [yang kam 00:40:42], and that thing, where you get to engineer the perfect mouthful, and that is what the dish is all about. Pad Thai is on that continuum, I think.

Molly:

Okay, cool. I like that perspective. I wouldn't have known to frame it that way. That makes a lot of sense.

Matthew:

I am a framer. Dried shrimp, you can definitely order this online. It's optional, but it adds some nice fishy funk. Peanuts, unless you're allergic to peanuts, very important.

Molly:

Hold on. I have questions. Roasted or not?

Matthew:

So, I am a big fan of Kroger brand roasted salted peanuts in a can. They're inexpensive. They are extremely delicious. And that is what I use for my Pad Thai.

Molly:

Awesome. All right, carry on.

Matthew:

Garlic chives or scallions, garlic chives, you will probably need to go to an Asian grocery to get, and they are by far the most common of that type of seasoning used in Thailand, but scallions are also really good.

Molly:

Okay. And then, we need eggs, of course. Those are going to be lightly beaten before you add them.

Matthew:

Yeah. Cooks in Thailand will usually crack them into the pan, and then just stir them in, which is fine. Dried chili flakes, if you want it spicy, great. If you don't want it spicy, that's fine. Pressed tofu is really good, or if you have some firm tofu, just press some of the water out of it, cut it into small pieces, and brown it a little in a pan. That's great in Pad Thai.

Matthew:

And then, the one ingredient that I think is absolutely essential to Pad Thai, and unfortunately, all of these things are things that you can buy, and keep around either in the fridge, or in the cupboard, and will last a long time. Beansprouts, however, they'd get slimy and weird almost immediately.

Matthew:

And so, what I've been doing is every time I order from Uwajimaya, I order a bag of beansprouts, and make Pad Thai the day I get the delivery, and then again, the next day or the day after before the beansprouts go bad.

Molly:

Okay, good strategy.

Matthew:

Because the beansprouts are the ingredient that really lightens. Lightens isn't even the right word. It just brings the right texture to the whole dish.

Molly:

Yes, yes, I get that.

Matthew:

And a nice crunch, also.

Molly:

I'm getting tired.

Matthew:

Okay. We're almost there.

Molly:

Okay.

Matthew:

I'm getting hungry.

Molly:

I, too.

Matthew:

Squeeze of lime, definitely. Okay. So, again, I feel like I'm concerned that because I said you're not going to get it on the first try. And then, I just listed 17 ingredients that people are going to listen to this and be like, "Okay, cool. I'm never making this. I'm going to order from my local Thai restaurant." No, please make it.

Matthew:

It is so worth it. Homemade Pad Thai, it is not at all expensive. Most of these ingredients last a long time. And you can like lay in a supply. You can make extra sauce, which is just made from the sugar, the tamarind paste, and the fish sauce. And keep it in the fridge. It is so worthwhile to make this at home.

Molly:

Also, I venture to guess that even your like, not very good attempts, or what you, Matthew, are describing as not very good attempts will still be adored by your family.

Matthew:

Yes, definitely. I'm definitely the home cook whose like, "This didn't come out perfect. Sorry, everybody," which I know is a bad habit. But yeah, you're absolutely right.

Molly:

Yeah. I think that for most of us, it's going to be perfectly tasty enough on the first go round. And ideally, we'll just get better and better.

Matthew:

Yeah. And watch Pailin's video, which we'll link to. She covers everything you need to know about how to get the noodles to the right texture.

Molly:

Cool. Oops, sorry. I just hit the mic.

Matthew:

Well, that was your mic drop. And luckily, I just run out of things to say about Pad Thai.

Molly:

Oh, yay. No. Did I mean that? No. I didn't mean that. I meant this was a great-

Matthew:

She kind of meant it.

Molly:

I meant that this was a great episode, and it just made me hungry and sleepy.

Matthew:

I know. Yeah. Okay. I'm going to make this definitely within the next couple of days. Maybe, yeah, you're coming by today. I'm not going to make it today, but-

Molly:

Maybe I should hold off on coming, but-

Matthew:

You could.

Molly:

Well, let's stay in touch.

Matthew:

Okay, yes. Molly, let's stay in touch. Let's maybe even do another episode of this show someday. We'll see how people like this one.

Molly:

Let's stay in touch. And as usual, our listeners won't be able to have any, but they're used to it by now.

Matthew:

Yup. Okay. So, find us online at spilledmilkpodcas.com, and facebook.com/spilledmilkpodcast. What do we want to know about our listeners and their Pad Thai experience?

Molly:

I don't know, Matthew.

Matthew:

Here's one thing I would love to know. If you grew up with one or both of your parents making this dish, and they taught you how to make it, I would love to hear how this dish is taught. Because don't feel compelled, but if this describes you, I would love to hear about this. And I bet we have some listeners for whom this is true.

Molly:

I was just thinking the other day about my host mother when I was in college in France making her vinaigrette right in the bottom of the salad bowl before she added the lettuce on top.

Matthew:

Oh, did she do it tableside?

Molly:

She did not do it tableside. She did it stove side.

Matthew:

Okay, that's fair. I think if you made your salad stove side, it might get warm.

Molly:

Anyway, no, it was just the bowl.

Matthew:

Just a bowl with stove side.

Molly:

She hadn't put the dressing in yet. But I still think about how her method was so different from what I do. And yet, she took great pain to teach me that, and it was how she made it every night, and I like to imagine her kids making it now as grownups.

Matthew:

Yeah.

Molly:

So, anyway, yeah, I'm curious to hear how-

Matthew:

They put a bowl on the stove. They'd turn it on to that medium heat.

Molly:

Yeah. Add a little bit of mustard.

Matthew:

Bowl starts to melt.

Molly:

Then, your tampering, and don't turn your back on your beansprouts.

Matthew:

Don't turn your back on your beansprouts. I'm Matthew Amster-Burton.

Molly:

I'm Molly Wizenberg. I'm falling apart.

Matthew:

Also, our producer's Abby Cerquitella. And you can find us on Instagram, bye.

Molly:

All right.

Matthew:

Well, I don't know how I'd feel about that.