555: Cooking with Wine

Molly 0:00

Hi. I'm Molly.

Matthew Amster-Burton 0:05

And I'm Matthew.

Molly 0:06

And this is spilled milk, the show where we cook something delicious. Eat it all and you can't have any.

Matthew Amster-Burton 0:10

And today we're talking about cooking with wine.

Molly 0:13

This was suggested by listener Brandon who is not a spouse or ex spouse of the show just a listener.

Matthew Amster-Burton 0:20

Just just, I mean, no one's just no no when you're with us, you're

Molly 0:24

with family.

Matthew Amster-Burton 0:25

That's it. Right? We're This episode is sponsored by the Olive Garden and all of you get unlimited breadsticks.

Molly 0:31

Oh God, that would be so great.

Matthew Amster-Burton 0:33

It's so great. Like yeah, breadsticks just started popping out of your phone? Oh,

Molly 0:37

yes. Okay, well, anyway, thank you listener, Brandon. When you're with us, you're with breadsticks?

Matthew Amster-Burton 0:43

Okay. Good slug, right

Molly 0:46

isn't good. Like with breadsticks? It could mean so many things like you're you're pregnant with them, you're like, or like we're breadsticks, or yeah, we're

Matthew Amster-Burton 0:53

like you're just surrounded by breadsticks because we get them for free like the layout of Dairy Queen only with breadsticks. Oh, is that is there a land of Dairy Queen when I was a kid like the Dairy Queen commercials they haven't done them in a long time. But like the the theme was the land of Dairy Queen, and it would show the camera would pan over like a nature scene. But we're everything was made out of like soft serve ice cream, or like flowing hot fudge and stuff. Yeah, pretty good. Sounds like Candyland. It was a lot like Candyland. Yes, it was, it was as if they were filming the Candy Land Board.

Molly 1:28

Okay, you know, I'm gonna start us off on memory lane. Okay. And again, just in case you're wondering what this episode is. It's cooking with wine with wine, even though we've been talking about everything else. So I think that, you know, I'm sure my parents cooked with wine all the time when I was growing up. But I think the first thing I remember cooking with wine was this super weird recipe that I think I found in the New York Times, like in my first apartment alone, I remember my dad came to visit me and I thought, Oh, I'm gonna make this recipe. Okay, it was like salmon poached in like red wine. I've heard of this, like, yeah, like a really light red wine, like a Pinot Noir. Okay. And I made it. And it wasn't like a total disaster. But I just think back on it. And I'm like, this doesn't sound very good. Like, why would I do that salmon is really delicate in flavor. Yeah. And

Matthew Amster-Burton 2:21

like the idea of poaching in wine. Like if it's if we're not talking about like fruit doesn't kind of doesn't seem like the best way to use wine in cooking, right?

Molly 2:29

I don't know. I don't know. I mean, I do tend to think of it being used in other places where the heat is higher, and you're gonna let the alcohol evaporate off quickly,

Matthew Amster-Burton 2:38

and get some some reduction. Yeah, we'll talk about this.

Molly 2:43

Anyway, I do remember making that salmon. And then I remember when I was living in Paris around the same age, yeah. 2223.

Matthew Amster-Burton 2:53

How are you living in two places at the same time?

Molly 2:56

I can't remember whether I made the salmon when I was in the US or in Paris. Okay. I can't remember. My dad did come to visit me that spring that I was there who wouldn't? Anyway, but when I was living over there alone, I remember my landlord when he like, you know, was showing me around the apartment. When I first got there. He told me about this neighborhood restaurant called Le Tabgha that he thought I would like a lot because I think he thought that it would just be like a great neighborhood place to okay to go. And I went, and I was by myself. And they seated me I'm sure I've told this story before they see it again. They said to me the place was run by two men. I think they were maybe a couple. They asked me if I was willing to sit with a friend of theirs. Oh, interested now know if I've heard this now. I feel like I would be like, No, I'm not willing. But I think at the time, there was just something about their demeanor. And I was like, okay, and they seated me at this table kind of near the bar with this beautiful man whose name was Manu. And he was a bartender at, like on a nearby street that had a lot of bars, okay? And he would often come in and like eat dinner and chat with his friends before he started his shift at the bar. Okay, and so he was sitting there eating alone, and I sat with him. And anyway, he became like my, my first real friend over there when I was living by myself. I remember he was really into rollerblading. Oh, that's so great. And I thought it was so goofy, but anyway, we went to movies together sometimes,

Matthew Amster-Burton 4:36

like if you rollerblade around Paris, you would bump into so many people and knock them down. I guess you just got to know where to go.

Molly 4:42

He was he was a very live and sinewy kind of makes sense. Anyway, but yeah, I remember the thing I loved to eat there was on millet, which is poached in red wine. There's usually you know, like the sauce is usually mounted with butter. YEAH. OH MY GOD IT'S SO GOOD anyway, but I remember sitting there with my new eating eggs poached in red wine

Matthew Amster-Burton 5:06

or the like sometimes I've had like the eggs are like sitting on like Pete little pieces of toast. Yes. Is that typical?

Molly 5:12

That is a that is a thing that often happens I don't remember if that was how they were served at the top is such a good dish. Oh, it got it. Fantastic.

Matthew Amster-Burton 5:19

All right, my cookie with wide memory. I didn't know where where my thoughts were gonna go when I when I started thinking about cookie with mind memory wine memory lane. So I want to talk about the late Stephen Shaw. Do you remember Did you ever meet Stephen Shaw Shaw, one of the founders of Eagle. He was one of the founders of Eagle at where we were we crossed paths in the early 2000s. It was a it was an online food discussion site like like Chow Hound. A lot of people know Chow very similar, I think I think like it was started by like people, people who are disillusioned with Chow hounds.

Molly 5:49

And I preferred Eagle I have to say, I mean it was foundational for me,

Matthew Amster-Burton 5:54

right. And like, I used to read Stephen Shaw's food blog, which was called fat guy.com before he started IGAD, and he was he was a truly great food writer and like very influential, and he died in 2014. Very young. So I think one of the first times I ever used wine in cooking was after I read this article that he posted on his website, which was like, in some ways, like the kind of food article they tell you not to write because it was like super first person and like digressions all over the place. And it was like 3000 words long, and it was called Matt and Steve's ultimate braising weekend. And so he the the premise of the article was his friend Matt, Chef, Matt came over not me, and they braised a bunch of stuff. Like I the one things I remember were lamb shanks and short ribs. And I at the time I read it, I did not understand what braising was. I had never bought wine for cooking, and I had definitely never bought or cooked lamb shanks or short ribs. Okay, I'm like, I'm gonna try this. And I think I did both lamb shanks and short ribs and, like a couple of different kinds of wine. And for some reason, I remember vividly, he suggested, like, if you don't have a braising pan, just get some foil, like, like, you know, disposable foil, baking pans and braise in that. And that's what I did, and it worked great. And, like this article made me feel like, you know, made the food sound delicious, and made me feel like I could do this new technique and you know, with new cuts of meat and you know, use wine and cooking, which I hadn't really done before. And like everything turned out great. Like Steve and I became friends. And like, he asked me to be the Pacific Northwest moderator for egullet, which I did for a while. And like this was this was when I was just like starting to do food writing. And, you know, that part of partly because of that experience, like I started getting more interested in wine, which I'm still kind of interested in, like, just in terms of like, you know, understanding the different types and like how it's made and stuff, but I don't really drink wine very much at all.

Molly 7:55

So did you were you did you make like short ribs in red wine? Yeah. Is that one of the things Okay, yeah,

Matthew Amster-Burton 8:01

I don't remember like, what how the lamb shank recipe was different, but I'm pretty sure it was two different types of I might you might have been braised and white wine. I don't know.

Molly 8:08

Oh, man. That sounds great. Well, so Okay, Matthew, what what broadly, can you teach us today about cooking with wine?

Matthew Amster-Burton 8:16

All right. So I tried to research like the history of cooking with wine, which is kind of just not like a well defined question. Yes. So first, what we're gonna be talking about grape wine on this episode. I liked a grape wine because it's like a phrase you never hear but it is accurate

Molly 8:32

as opposed to like Shao Shang rice wine or

Matthew Amster-Burton 8:34

sakeI. Or, like other wines, wines made from other fruits and grains. I would like to do an episode on especially like, I do enjoy drinking Sockeye sometimes, but like mostly cooking with it, and I cook with shouting rice wine a lot. We should we should do this as an episode. Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, so right, but we're sticking a grape wine today and cooking with wine is probably as old as wine itself. You know, the earliest evidence of wine drinking comes from Georgia, the country of Georgia around 6000 BCE. Okay. And so there isn't there isn't a lot that I could find of like, you know, these these are some dishes from like, 5000 years ago that that were made with wine is just like, you know, it's it's used as like a poaching braising deglazing medium. The most iconic, I wanted to ask you if you agree with this, like the most iconic dish made with wine I could think of was Coco van.

Molly 9:28

I think that sounds right. That sounds correct. Yeah. And

Matthew Amster-Burton 9:31

it's, that is a dish that is probably centuries old, but we're just not sure. And it was it wasn't documented until the 19th century and the earliest recipe which is from 1867. The earliest known written recipe uses white wine. Have you made cocoa via I've made it a few times. Yeah. And not recently like it feels me feels really old school right, but it's still very good.

Molly 9:56

I don't think I've I know I've never made it and I think I Maybe had it once. Like, you know, maybe my host mother or something made it once when I was in France it's just not the kind of thing that people around here in the states are making all the

Matthew Amster-Burton 10:12

time. Yeah. And it's you know, it's like chicken like usually like a whole cut up chicken braised in red wine and often with like, does it get like, like, you know, pearl onions sometimes, or is that just are that just short now

Molly 10:25

I'm thinking of before before he knew. Yeah, my mom makes a really good before Guinea which I think is actually I know gardens recipe Yeah.

Matthew Amster-Burton 10:32

Before he knew I was one of my favorite things. Oh my God really make it because it's a big production.

Molly 10:37

It is a huge production. My mom, she never made stuff like this when I was a kid. I feel like she made these kinds of like, dishes with titles before I was born. This is the titles I like men didn't make them for the 18 years that I was living at home. And now that I am in Yeah, no IDs.

Matthew Amster-Burton 10:59

Those things after I had a kid

Molly 11:01

she has now returned to making elaborate things like this and be 14 Y'all is one of them. You know, I do think actually, I'm glad that I thought of this because I know garden is somebody who is like if you're looking for a recipe for one of these like dishes with names and or like cooking with wine, I feel like Ina Garten has that stuff locked in. Yeah. I mean, maybe that's like sacrilege given that she's an American woman making some of these more classically European dishes but she does it so yeah, so

Matthew Amster-Burton 11:33

was Julia Child, right? It's true. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, so before going on also first documented in the 19th century, that's a you know, burgundy style. Beef braised in red wine usually like like chunks of beef often love and like kind of large chunks of stewing beef and then garnished at the end with like, a quick saute of like glazed mushrooms bacon and onion. Yes. Which, what a brilliant idea. It's so good. Yeah, we should we should do this sometime. Like, how are we gonna, like set aside the time to do this?

Molly 12:08

I don't know. And we're definitely not going to do it until the weather gets colder. Yeah, you know, we're gonna do we're gonna do it like maybe in November, or early December because the the nights are so long and start so early. Yeah. You just gotta curl really the time to start breathing. Yeah. All right. So other iconic European recipes made with wine of course. And millet. Yeah. Which we already talked about

Matthew Amster-Burton 12:31

muscles in white wine. Steamed, like yep, yep. So good. I made dinner like fairly recently, actually. I made green curry mussels for dinner recently, but but Mussels with white wine and shallots also classic.

Molly 12:43

What about risotto? Yeah, I've

Matthew Amster-Burton 12:45

always put white wine in my risotto and less occasion I'll put red wine and resent it like something, something like a principle that I've learned from cooking with wine, which, like I said, I do more often than I drink wine is like, it's almost always fine to substitute red for white wine or vice versa. Like the worst thing that's going to happen is something is going to come out a weird color.

Molly 13:04

It's going to taste slightly different. I mean, well, maybe a lot different. But what's you know, what's not to like?

Matthew Amster-Burton 13:11

Yeah. Fondue that's made with wine, right? Yep. Yep, of course.

Molly 13:16

Red wine. Braised pears. Yep.

Matthew Amster-Burton 13:17

That's something I don't think I've ever made. Although I have eaten.

Molly 13:21

Mother of the show. Tony Weissenberg. She used to this is maybe one of the few cooking with wine things that I remember her doing from my childhood. Yeah, lots of red wine braised pears for dinner parties.

Matthew Amster-Burton 13:33

Nice. Yeah. So 80s God when like, Have you

Molly 13:37

ever had a dinner party as an adult? Like the kind of thing well, did your parents have these kinds of dinner parties growing up? They did where like, you would do something fiddly, like red wine braised pears for dessert, and there'd be a kid's table there'd be a kid's table and or like the kids would be banished. Banished? Yes.

Matthew Amster-Burton 13:56

Yeah, like like pizza pizza in the basement. Yeah, yeah.

Molly 14:00

I mean

Matthew Amster-Burton 14:02

there's pizza in the basement because the jar like actually did this kind of on me every time

Molly 14:11

I think I think I did this kind of thing more when I was like newly married I feel like I was like a fucking 1950s housewife

Matthew Amster-Burton 14:18

ever do this? Like I we have like had people over like like one other couple over and made dinner.

Molly 14:25

I mean, I recently I think that Brandon and I when we weren't because we didn't have kids for five years. I think you didn't either right? Yeah, longer and more than that. But I think that it was also you know, during those years that like we were both really into food and into cooking specifically during that time, so I do think we would do these like fiddly meals and have people over but yeah, then that went out the

Matthew Amster-Burton 14:50

window that like that stage of my life was so long ago now. I really just don't remember it.

Molly 14:55

Yeah, yeah. Okay, fair enough. Okay, what are other classic European In recipes made with wine.

Matthew Amster-Burton 15:01

Okay, so like pan sauce is like a sauce board Allez, which is, which is like deglaze like cook a steak or something like that that deglaze with red wine and like thicken it with bone marrow, which I've definitely never done. I think I ate once. I've definitely made like a red wine pan sauce with that. It's like mounted with butter and like some shallots in there. I love that, of course.

Molly 15:21

Bolin. Yay. Ze Yeah. Oh, I mean, you know what, what would that be without some wine? Yeah,

Matthew Amster-Burton 15:26

and that that one, like you could do red or white wine and both of them are going to be equally delicious and a little bit different. cioppino kept coming up as wine Pinot has wide. Apparently, I've almost never had to pee no despite, like having spent time it but I've never really spent time in Northern California. That's where it's from. Right.

Molly 15:44

I remember going through a little period like, I don't know, I remember when I was in college, and like reading the San Francisco Chronicle food section. There were always recipes for tropeano and I think I thought that at some point in my life, I would be someone who made cioppino and I had this like accordion file file that I would put all my recipe clippings in. And I had a lot of recipes for cioppino

Matthew Amster-Burton 16:05

Have you ever made it? No. Okay, I think my mom has made subpoena I have vague vague recollection of this. It's like it's like a fish soup.

Molly 16:14

Yeah, it's delicious. Yeah, tomato in there. Yeah. Fantastic.

Matthew Amster-Burton 16:17

Chicken Marsala. I haven't made this in ages. At one point. It was like one of my favorite dishes. So like 80s and 90s. Now but it's so good. God you

Molly 16:26

know Matthew this fall I really think maybe we should do some episodes that are like classic European. You know, dishes with names dishes with names. We should call the episode dishes with names. Yeah, but I think we could do like one per episode. No, you're right. Or maybe like two per I don't know. Okay. Okay.

Matthew Amster-Burton 16:44

Maybe Yeah, maybe like a limited series the dishes with dishes with names month? Yes. Okay. Sounds great. We did wherever we did Bananas Foster wines. That was really fun. It was so good. Yeah, whatever we make. Let's set it on fire. Great. Okay. Even if it's not supposed to be Yeah, so chicken marsala. It's like made like Marsala is like a like a Sicilian dessert wine. And so it's got some sweetness to it and like tastes very different from like, our, you know, typical red or white wine. And it's so so it's like, typically has the mushrooms Right? Like, like, chicken breast with mushrooms.

Molly 17:14

I tend to confuse it with that like, silver palate recipe. Chicken Marbella. Yeah. Yeah. That has like prunes and olives. stuff. Yeah.

Matthew Amster-Burton 17:24

Which isn't, which is also good. Yeah,

Molly 17:25

I'm not sure if that has wine in it, though.

Matthew Amster-Burton 17:27

I imagine it might probably.

Molly 17:30

Matthew, you you wrote a little thought here about.

Matthew Amster-Burton 17:35

Okay, so about cooking like big. I think this is this is gonna fall apart if we look at it too closely. But like I mentioned, I've been doing quite a bit of Korean cooking lately. And I feel like there is an extent to which wine in French and Italian cooking serves a similar function as to kimchi and Korean cooking. So first of all, it's like a thing you have on the side that like is very acidic, and cuts through whatever rich dish are eating alongside it, and you cook with it. And when you've got some wine or kimchi That's too old to be good for drinking or eating, then you cook with it. That is fair, and it serves sort of like a similar function when cooking like, you know, that adds like some nice like, you know, brightness.

Molly 18:15

I you know, I Okay, I agree with part of that. I feel like the you know, if you have it around, and it's too old kind of thing. Wouldn't they just pour it in? Like the vinegar barrel?

Matthew Amster-Burton 18:24

Yeah, you're right. kind of forgot about vinegar.

Molly 18:30

But, but I do think you're right, that, you know, the, the role of it. I mean, does every every cuisine must have something that they use to cut richness and tap brightness, right? It's just like lemon juice or, or vinegar or vinegar. Yeah. Or even like lime leaves or right. Yeah, that sort of help. Yeah. Anyway. So what does most of the alcohol evaporate? And like, how long does that really take?

Matthew Amster-Burton 18:57

Okay, so I think this is something that's been discussed a lot like anyone who's ever done like a, you know, food q&a column has probably answered this question. And the answer is, depending on how long you cook the wine more, more alcohol will evaporate. So like in a long cooks do like a beef, pork and yawn, there's probably like, less than 5% and probably less than 2% of the alcohol that you started with. Okay? Which which, like in like, even like a pretty strong wine is going to be like 15% to start with

Molly 19:25

the other day. June was eating some slices of sopressata made by the company criminally. And she was looking at the ingredients and she goes, Oh, mama, I shouldn't be eating this. It has wine. Right? And I was like, Don't you worry. But then again, like that's not cooked,

Matthew Amster-Burton 19:43

right? But like, Yeah, sure. Yeah. So so so a lot of the alcohol is going to evaporate during the curing process and also it's a very small amount of wine. Yes. Yeah. No if like, if you are concerned about like you know that you are sober and don't want to consume alcohol. or don't want to consume alcohol for religious reasons. One thing that that I noticed which probably people who are in that position are way ahead of beyond is that just like we found that there is a lot of like really good quality non alcoholic beer. There is now a lot of good quality D alcohol lized wine being made as well. Yeah, so this used to be like not a thing like you could find like, like wine for cooking in like the salad dressing aisle or something and it would be salted and really gross. Okay, and now you can get like several brands, there's like, one, one of the earlier ones is called def free fr EE that's been around for a while. But there a lot of brands now of like non alcoholic wine that tastes good and is certainly more than good enough to cook with.

Molly 20:42

Okay. And I imagine that it is, you know, not exactly like alcoholic wine.

Matthew Amster-Burton 20:49

Yeah, so I was reading about it, like several sources that I found, including cooks illustrated said like if you're cooking with non alcoholic wine, it's probably going to be a little bit sweeter and a little bit less acidic than alcohol, alcoholic wine. So just add a little lemon juice at the end. Great. Yeah,

Molly 21:05

that's fantastic. Yeah.

What is it that makes wine good for cooking? I mean, obviously, so it's a liquid and when you're braising liquid, and a lot of recipes need liquid and it's got acidity to it. Yeah.

Matthew Amster-Burton 21:25

Which, just like, most of the stuff we eat is acidic. We I almost feel like we should do a whole episode on acidity and food. Although a maybe we already did I never remember it'd be maybe that would be really boring. But like, you know, it's it's one. It's one of the most important factors like whether we consider a food like craveable Yes,

Molly 21:47

yes, absolutely. I remember when Brandon was working as a lunch cook at boat street kitchen learning. That was where he really learned how to adjust things with with acid.

Matthew Amster-Burton 22:01

Or learn how to adjust things in chiropractic school. With the tiniest bit

Molly 22:05

of sugar. Of course with salt. Yeah. Or with fat like these are these are these are things these

Matthew Amster-Burton 22:12

are the levers we can we can depress in the kitchen. Yes.

Molly 22:16

I mean, I try. I don't like to be depressed in the kitchen. I can't help

Matthew Amster-Burton 22:21

it. Well, no, but like, whenever I feel depressed in the kitchen, I just reach for one of these levers to just like start start pressing it in a food pellet. Yes, that always

Molly 22:29

makes me feel better, too. I learned how to do that once when I was in a lab in a cage. Yeah, me too. Yeah. Okay. So I mean, I guess the other thing is, when you are cooking with wine, you are always cooking it enough that it that it reduces a little bit that the alcohol cooks off. So I mean, the alcohol itself can't be contributing that much flavor.

Matthew Amster-Burton 22:49

No, there, there is an extent to which alcohol does contribute something because there are some flavor compounds that you know are going to occur in other ingredients that are going to be soluble in alcohol but not soluble in water. And so it's going to draw those out in a way that it wouldn't if you weren't using alcohol. In practice. I think that's a very small amount of what wine contributes to a dish. It's mostly the acid and the flavor compounds. Okay, and you're usually reducing it so like you're taking something that tastes good to start with and making it more intense and sauces. Yes, and wine with like reduced wine with butter is like one of the most perfect flavor combinations in the kitchen. Right. You

Molly 23:30

know, this reminds me again, like thinking about kimchi because kimchi and butter. Yeah, like one another, you know?

Matthew Amster-Burton 23:37

Yeah, I think it's that like, you know, Butter. Butter is like one of the best tasting and best textured things but you know, is very, like rich and intense and can be cloying. Yes. But then when you take that and cut it with something acidic, that's contributing flavors of its own like that. That's like the best way to butter. Spilled Milk the best way to the best way to butter. We should get into slugger we've been using the same slogan for like 28 years or whatever.

Molly 24:04

Yeah, yeah, the best way to butter is our new one. Thanks, everybody. That this is the end of my show. Season

Matthew Amster-Burton 24:09

two begins next week.

Molly 24:12

Okay, so Matthew, when you're like when you're buying wine for cooking, do you do you buy like the super cheap stuff? Do you would you buy wine in a box? I mean, this is you know, now you can get pretty decent wine and a BA and I feel like this is the time to buy wine in a box. Yeah, keep so long.

Matthew Amster-Burton 24:29

I totally agree. So when I think when the first time I cooked with wine, like I think cooks illustrated like did a tasting of like wines for cooking. And they concluded that like the best red wine for cooking was like an inexpensive Cote du Rhone. And when they say inexpensive it was like $10 A bottle Okay, and so that's what I bought and it was good of course, but then I found like, it just doesn't matter that much like so yeah, now I buy like Bota box Why'd in a box it's like $5 A bottle equivalent or less. And yeah, it keeps four months in the fridge. So when I need like a cup of wine for a recipe, I just spent a cup of wine.

Molly 25:11

That's great. Do you cook with wine? So I do tend to have wine around in the house. And when I am cooking with it, which admittedly isn't that often it's so things that I make with wine a lot are well, risotto. Yeah. So I usually you know, you need white wine for that.

Matthew Amster-Burton 25:30

Yeah. And usually like a half a cup. Like a box is perfect. Yes.

Molly 25:35

Other things. So in the summer, apricots poached in, in wine are delicious white wine. Rhubarb also fantastic. You know, cooked slowly in wine with vanilla bean and sugar. Yes. So good. I think that the thing I make most often, at least during certain times of the year, like in the fall and winter, is a recipe from ombre barons who wrote the book, roughage. Her more recent book is called Grist. It's about grain. Yeah. Anyway, roughage is a fantastic book. And it has a recipe in there for slow cooked leaks with cream and time. And basically, it's like the kind of thing where, you know, like, when your CSA box gives you like three giant leaks. This is, this is what I do with dice. So basically, you know, you browse, good, you brown them, you you cook a little bit of time in the butter as well. And then you add wine and stock, I think both things white wine, cook for a little bit over really low heat and finish it with cream. And it's so fantastic. And again, it tastes it just so French, like leeks, white wine, cream and butter. Could anything about that be anything but very French. That's

Matthew Amster-Burton 27:02

so good. It's

Molly 27:03

really, really good. So I make that a lot. But inevitably, you know, I haven't thought to get like a box of white wine and keep it around forever. I have tended to just make sure that we had white wine in the house that week.

Matthew Amster-Burton 27:16

Yeah, if you look at my fridge, there's a red box and a white box,

Molly 27:19

really? And so how long would you say you keep them in there?

Matthew Amster-Burton 27:22

I think six months?

Molly 27:24

That is really good to know. And

Matthew Amster-Burton 27:26

I think it does get to a point like like, I'm not drinking it anyway, but I think it does get to a point where it would be kind of a little oxidized and like a little weird to drink, but it's still cooks fine at that point.

Molly 27:37

God that's really good to know. And how many, so how much is a box?

Matthew Amster-Burton 27:41

So I get the boxes the equivalent of two bottles. So one and a half liters. It's like 10 bucks, like 10 bucks and it feels that easily in the fridge. Yeah,

Molly 27:50

that is great. Because yeah, I usually wind up buying a white wine or something that's about 10 bucks a bottle. Yeah, but then you use half a cup and then I I wind up drinking the rest right?

Matthew Amster-Burton 28:01

If I if I drank more wine, I might approach it differently and try and like like, look for a inexpensive bottle that I would be like excited to drink but also cook with some of but but I don't.

Molly 28:12

Okay, um, are there wines that you really avoid cooking with?

Matthew Amster-Burton 28:16

So I think the only ones you would want to avoid cooking with are like very tannic, or okie wines like a big Cabernet or Chardonnay, but you probably wouldn't avoid those any I would avoid those anyway because I don't like them. But even if you do like them, you're probably not going to buy them to cook with because they tend to be more expensive. Okay, so these box ones are you getting like, like pinot grigio or something like that. And then what are you getting for the red? Like I've read blend or Pinot Noir or something? Okay. Yeah. And the other the other thing to avoid is like very sweet wines like so some of the the most inexpensive box wines are like jug wines like Gallo Hardy burgundy, or like franzia, like are pretty sweet. That's still not going to be bad. It just may be like more sweet than you weren't going for and like a braised dish. Yeah. Yeah. Two Buck Chuck from Trader Joe's. Absolutely fine to cook with.

Molly 29:08

Yeah, yeah. Okay. I remember my friend Ben used to buy two Buck Chuck, to actually Oh, yeah. Why not? I cannot handle it. Yeah, I do not like the taste of

Matthew Amster-Burton 29:19

that's fair. What else you put a couple other things on the list of like things you've memorable things you've made with wine? Oh, I

Molly 29:24

covered it all. Okay. Oh, actually, one thing I wanted to mention. And again, this is something that uses the tiniest bit of white wine is an old recipe from Union Square Cafe in New York, and it is shaved brussel sprouts, that you cook over really high heat and olive oil. You add a little bit of white wine and then you finish it with poppy seeds and lemon.

Matthew Amster-Burton 29:48

Oh yeah,

Molly 29:50

I've had this. It's, it's fantastic. So it's basically like hashed brussel sprouts. So good. Like a really wonderful complexity from that bit of white wine.

Matthew Amster-Burton 30:00

Who thought of the idea of throwing poppy seeds in there? Works really well, like I never would have thought of

Molly 30:06

that my parents found this recipe through their friend Dick Bohannan. The late Dick Bo Hannah, Hannah, and it's in some I don't think it's maybe it's in a Union Square Cafe cookbook, but I don't know if there even is a Union Square Cafe co there is maybe it's yeah. Anyway, it's a fantastic dish. Really good for Thanksgiving because it comes together really fast. Yeah. And you can shave the brussel sprouts in the food press. I

Matthew Amster-Burton 30:30

think my mom may have once asked me to make this dish for Thanksgiving and bring it Yeah, it's fantastic. Or maybe she made it and I'm taking credit for it. Great. Yeah, super good.

Molly 30:41

Yeah. And yeah, if you have a food processor with like a shredding disk, you know, that sits at the top. I don't

Matthew Amster-Burton 30:47

know I do. I just am like afraid to use it. Because I feel like it's gonna be hard to clean but

Molly 30:51

it's not. It's not and that is a really fast, surefire way to shred some sprouts. So that's a great recipe. Maybe we can find it some actually, I may have written about it on the old blog years ago, maybe Abby can find the link.

Matthew Amster-Burton 31:05

I have a story about Union Square Cafe that I probably told on the show before, but I'll tell it again. Great. When we were living in New York in 1998, and I was working at this weird little internet startup business in the West Village like the Meatpacking District. I had heard that the the if you love food and you love burgers, you've got to try the burger at Union Square Cafe. So one day I took I took off for lunch. And like I like wore nice clothes. Because like I figured you had to like to sit at the bar at Union Square Cafe because like a nice restaurant. I didn't know anything about anything. I did go to Union Square Cafe for lunch just straight down 14th Street. I had the burger. It was delicious. And then I got back to work. My boss asked me if I had gone to a job interview.

Molly 31:51

Are you serious? Yes. Oh my god.

Matthew Amster-Burton 31:56

So I had to tell the truth. Burnout for a burger burger interview. Nobody believed me but that guy was an asshole so I don't care Great. Didn't get fired or anything until later

Molly 32:08

you believe he asked you that

Matthew Amster-Burton 32:12

I didn't get fired. I quit. Oh, one other thing that I've made a couple times recently with wine was like I had I just kind of had a craving partly because we had some herbs growing on the balcony for like a white wine pork stew with herbs and just kind of improvised this in the Instant Pot I think like pork shoulder chicken broth just like like you know store brought bought low sodium swans and chicken broth. Plenty of white wine and whatever, whatever. Herbs I found on the balcony, which was probably like parsley, parsley, thyme and rosemary. That just just like breaks that up like how some of the herbs back to put in fresh at the end and served over buttered egg noodles. So good.

Molly 32:53

Fantastic. All right.

Matthew Amster-Burton 32:56

So that's cooking with wine that that is everything that needs to be said about cooking with wine. There is nothing else to add.

Molly 33:02

Yeah, and if you think of anything, don't tell us. That's right. Matthew, do we have any spilled mail today?

Matthew Amster-Burton 33:07

We do and I'll read it it's from listener Jenny.

To get right to the point I was stopped in my tracks at the store today when I saw a family sized bag of kettle brand jalapeno chips does Molly know about this? Can we all collectively reach out to her local supermarket about getting this in stock so she doesn't have to stay out of the family size chip bag club anymore? assuming everyone except her has access to their favorite chips being available in family sized chip bags. Does that make sense? It's 2:50am As I write this, so I think this is related to maybe our jalapeno chips episode and maybe you said something about how you usually get the regular size bag and go through it quickly. So

Molly 33:45

I discovered actually so both of the supermarkets that I go to often now stock the what they call I think sharing size. Yes. I guess to make you not feel too bad if you don't have a family, Robbie, maybe you just find anybody to share it. You can share it with yourself tomorrow. Anyway, yes, I buy it in the sharing size bag and it's my life is so much better.

Matthew Amster-Burton 34:06

Oh good. Yeah. Also says listener Jenny if you do have an error this question on the podcast could you possibly give a shout out to my new six month old baby Noel and her stuffed beaver named Lucy?

Molly 34:16

Hi Noel. Hi Lucy.

Matthew Amster-Burton 34:17

I like the idea of introducing her to yells podcast when she's older and embarrassing her with an episode featuring a shout out to her and her favorite stuffed animal. Hopefully by then we'll have the technology to frame a sound bite so I can embarrass her further by bragging about the shout out to her friends. So Okay, a couple of things first of all, hi Noel. Hi musi. Secondly, this is not like an open invitation that we're going to say hi to like all your babies and their stuffed animals they have to like have a super cute stuffed animal name Yeah, so we're setting a really high standard Yeah. Musi and also like I want a report from like a few years from now when you play this episode for for I want I want to hear how musi reacts in particular but also know well yeah, what else do Kenny so binge listening to all 500 Plus episodes of your show got me through a rough pregnancy so thank you so much for all the hard work that goes into this show. You're welcome

Molly 35:08

pastic You are so welcome Matthew I have now but wow this week

so my now but wow is a book that came out last month it is by the the American comedian and sort of general all around excellent like social commentary guide W Kamau Bell. Sure.

Matthew Amster-Burton 35:35

And I didn't even know what your what your pic was. And that's who I thought you were gonna

Molly 35:39

say. Okay, so yeah, this is a this is a new book came out last month by W. Kamau Bell and his friend Kate Schatz, who is also my friend Kate shot. Oh, nice. And I can't remember how the two of them met. They both live in the East Bay, California. Kate shots is a white lady. Come out is a black man. And they both are really passionate about anti racist work. Sure. And Kate did a lot of really fantastic work on Instagram in the summer of 2020. Educating white people Yeah, about anti racism. And she is the author of RAD girls can American History A to Z, all kinds of of fantastic contemporary books that take kind of a more radical activist oriented look at American history. Yeah. So she and Kamau Bell have teamed up for this book called do the work and anti racist activity book sounds great. Yes. And I will say there are a lot of books out there called do the work. Alright. So be sure that you get the one that is do the work, exclamation point. Okay. And the subtitle is an anti racist activity book. And this is basically like a workbook. For people of all ages. This is not specifically for kids. Sure. And you're going to learn a tremendous amount about American history about what has gotten us to the point the abysmal point that we are at in in the US in terms of inequality and institutionalized racism. So anyway, check it out. It's called do the work by W. Kamau Bell and Kate shots, and it should be in stores everywhere.

Matthew Amster-Burton 37:19

Our producer is Abbey circuit tele, please rate and review us wherever you get your podcasts.

Molly 37:25

And you can chat with other spilled milk listeners on reddit.com/are/everything spilled milk.

Matthew Amster-Burton 37:32

And until next time, thank you for listening to spilled milk. If you if you simmer us for 45 minutes, all our brain cells evaporate off.

Molly 37:41

It's true. I've minor totally gone.

Matthew Amster-Burton 37:45

I'm Matthew Amster-Burton. I'm Molly Weissenberg.