480: Knife Skills
Molly:
In this episode, you're going to hear us make a lot of jokes about Little House on the Prairie, and the other books in the Little House series. And these books are at the center of the conversation about white supremacy in children's literature. And after recording the episode, we realized that the way we talked about these books just didn't feel right to us.
Matthew:
Yeah. I in particular, I found myself talking about Little House in a way that sounded oblivious. Like I didn't know that these are very problematic books. And I'm sorry for that. We're not ignorant of the fact that these books promote a white colonialist worldview, and contain extremely racist depictions of Native American and black people.
Molly:
To be clear, we're not saying, you can't make jokes about that book, it's racist. What we're saying is that, making jokes about a book without acknowledging that it's racist, isn't funny. And we don't want to do that.
Matthew:
But we are airing the episode as we originally recorded it, because I in particular, don't want to pretend like I never made this mistake. And I want to promise to do better in the future.
Molly:
So all this is to say, it doesn't mean we want to avoid talking about problematic art, or that that's even possible. We just want to do a better job of it when we do.
Matthew:
And there's a podcast about this topic that I've been listening to recently, and I want to recommend. It explores the question of how to deal with art and artists that are both beloved and deeply flawed. It's called Fanti F-A-N-T-I. It's hosted by Jarrett Hill and Tre'vel Anderson. And you can find it wherever you get podcasts.
Molly:
I'm Molly.
Matthew:
And I'm Matthew.
Molly:
And this is Spilled Milk, the show where we cook something delicious, eat it all, and you can't have any.
Matthew:
And today we are talking about knife skills.
Molly:
Yes. This was suggested by listener Lexapo, and we sure it's not Lexapro.
Matthew:
I double checked that. It's Lexapo.
Molly:
Lexapo, on Reddit. Thank you listener Lexapo.
Matthew:
Yeah. So I'm excited for this one. I think we're going to define knife skills however we want.
Molly:
Yeah. When we first were talking about doing this, I was Oh, God. But Matthew, really I'm not good with traditional, what we call knife skills with capital letters.
Matthew:
Well, that's the thing. So let's get into that. I mean, we got to start on memory lane, obviously. But we also need to talk about what we think of as knife skills.
Molly:
Yes. Okay. Do you want to go first?
Matthew:
Sure. So I think I got my idea of what constituted knife skills probably from watching Food Network in the '90s, late '90s. And especially seeing people chopping onion and do it really fast, and chop some herbs and turn them into like flying herb powder in no time at all.
Molly:
Flying herb powder.
Matthew:
Flying herb powder. Yeah.
Molly:
Is that something they use in Harry Potter, like to travel in fireplaces?
Matthew:
Yes. You just throws some basil into the fireplace, you just put your face in there.
Molly:
You step in.
Matthew:
And you just go places mentally. You just step in.
Molly:
Yeah.
Matthew:
We tried to light a fire in our... We have a fireplace in our apartment. Not to brag.
Molly:
I always forget that you do, because I've never seen you use it.
Matthew:
We tried using it once. And I think we later determined that we thought the flue was open, but it was actually closed, but it didn't work. And we used the fire extinguisher to put it out. And I've never tried it again.
Molly:
Oh my God. Are you serious? You guys are such... I mean, I know I'm not one to speak. But you guys are like the most city people of city people.
Matthew:
Yeah. Like who needs fire anymore? Fire is for cave people.
Molly:
So we spent a couple days on Orcas Island over June's midwinter break. We borrowed a cabin from a friend of a friend, pandemic style. And anyway, the cabin was heated only by woodstove. So Ash and I got to brush up our fire-starting skills, and heat our cabin with a fire. And at one point it was like 82 degrees in there. But we're really good at lighting fires, not so much at calibrating what size they should be to adequately heat a cabin.
Matthew:
I think I once went to a school that had a wood stove. Is that possible?
Molly:
Did you grow up on a prairie, or-
Matthew:
I think I grew up in a fairly small house on a prairie, you know large wood. One time there was this winter that was pretty lengthy. And there was a small river running by that had peaches or some other stone fruit.
Molly:
Running in the river?
Matthew:
Well, yeah. And we used to hang out on the banks of said river.
Molly:
God. Wait a minute. I was following you for a minute. Was it Little House on the Prairie for a minute there?
Matthew:
Oh, yes. Then it was in the Big Wood. Then there was the long winter, then we were on the Banks of Plum Creek, and then I ran out of titles, even though there're like three more.
Molly:
And then a river ran through it.
Matthew:
And then a river ran through it. And Brad Pitt and I went out in our waders and caught a fly or whatever you do. We got some fly balls. And then Kevin Costner showed up with some ghost baseball players. It was very heartwarming. We learned a lot about our fathers.
Molly:
Oh my God, Matthew. That was brilliant. Oh, Matthew. You do not get paid enough. Wow, that was great.
Matthew:
Thanks.
Molly:
Okay. Wow.
Matthew:
Yes.
Molly:
So wait, you have a fireplace.
Matthew:
Oh, right.
Molly:
There we go.
Matthew:
No. You're coming back around as if there was a point to that story, but I'm pretty sure there wasn't.
Molly:
Wait a minute. Weren't you going to say something? did you try to light your fireplace again?
Matthew:
No.
Molly:
Oh, my God. I thought you were going to say that you tried it again.
Matthew:
Do you want me to try it again, and report back on a future episode? Because I don't think I will. I'm too scared.
Molly:
You guys have lived in this apartment as long as I've known you. So that's, at least-
Matthew:
Yeah. We've lived in this apartment for 16 years, I think.
Molly:
Have you ever had the chimney cleaned?
Matthew:
No.
Molly:
I mean, you probably don't need to if you've only lit a fire once.
Matthew:
Well, I mean, first of all, I don't think it's our responsibility to get the chimney cleaned, since it's like the chimney is like shared with the apartment above us and the apartment above that. And secondly, to hire Dick Van Dyke to come over and sweep the chimney probably cost like, I don't know, my guess is $300.
Molly:
And you will not be spending it.
Matthew:
No.
Molly:
I forgot that it's a shared chimney.
Matthew:
I assume it is. I assume the building... I don't know how many apartments have fireplaces, but probably most of them.
Molly:
Is there not a little part of you that's curious about how it could be cozy to have a fire with your family?
Matthew:
Yes. I'm a little bit fire curious.
Molly:
Okay. I mean, I enjoy having a fire with my family.
Matthew:
No, no. I do too. And when we went to a cabin, like a few months ago, there was a gas fireplace, and we turned that on. That's like magic fire. It was great.
Molly:
That is magic fire. Okay. So how did we get here from knife skills? I'm really trying to carefully walk us back-
Matthew:
I don't remember.
Molly:
... without you noticing.
Matthew:
Skills of building a fire is something like knife skills. So anyway. I think at some point, I got the idea that to be a real cook, you had to have the knife skills you see chefs on TV exhibiting. And later learned that, that is not the case.
Molly:
I absolutely believed this too. And I think that knife skills, up to a certain point, are very important.
Matthew:
Yeah.
Molly:
But past that point of everyday utility, I think that they are overhyped. That's my hot take.
Matthew:
Yeah. So I was thinking about what is my definition of knife skills. And first, it was just came up with a descriptive definition. Like it's how, what knives you have, and how you use them. But I think really, it's like the ability to do what you need to do in the kitchen in terms of cutting stuff up without getting too annoyed. That's how I would define it.
Molly:
I think that's a fantastic definition. I think that for me knife skills, I would add on to that, or I would get a little bit more specific about that without getting annoyed part. And I would say, being able to do what I need to do in the kitchen quickly. And with the result being what I like intended it to be. Do you know what I mean?
Matthew:
Sue. Yeah. If you intend to make like fried chicken and you're not able to cut up the chicken, and so you fry the whole chicken?
Molly:
That's different.
Matthew:
That's different.
Molly:
Or if I am... Like last night, I was making Yakisoba, and I was making ginger matchsticks.
Matthew:
I'm making Yakisoba tonight, by the way.
Molly:
Oh, nice. And the ability to do that quickly, and to have the matchsticks be approximately equal in size and not so big that you chomp down on one, and that it's like an explosion of ginger in your mouth, this, for me, is the level of knife skills that I value having. But I don't really care whether I can tell the difference between a Brunoise and a-
Matthew:
Batonnet.
Molly:
That must be some a stick thing.
Matthew:
It is a stick thing.
Molly:
A brunoise is a-
Matthew:
... small dice-
Molly:
It's a small choppy style.
Matthew:
It's a small choppy style. Yeah.
Molly:
I think that the only things I really need to know are, how to do a mince, like minced garlic, how to finely chop an onion, how to chop an onion normally, how to do julienning approximately. I'm not even sure I do it right. And how to do this quickly without hurting myself.
Matthew:
Yeah, exactly. And not like... The things you see chefs do, it's partly like just like a macho thing, I think. Partly it's because you're producing food in quantity. And if I needed to chop 50 onions, I would want to do it as fast as possible on a per onion basis, but I never need to chop 50 onions.
Molly:
Correct. And the other thing is, another reason why chefs get really specific about knife skills and the size of dice that you're going for, is so that things cook evenly.
Matthew:
Right. And consistently from batch to batch, right?
Molly:
Sure. And that is less important, of course, at home, batch to batch. But also there's just more wiggle room at home in general.
Matthew:
Yeah. My home is made for wiggling. We've got a shared chimney that's perfect for that.
Molly:
You've got that herbal what... Oh, my God. What did you say about the herb powder?
Matthew:
We've got a-
Molly:
You can use it in you chimney?
Matthew:
... flying herb powder.
Molly:
There we go.
Matthew:
Yes.
Molly:
Anyway. Oh, that's how we got back to fires.
Matthew:
Right. And if you don't wiggle just right, then it doesn't work.
Molly:
You can't fit in the chimney, if you don't wiggle just right.
Matthew:
That's what I've always said too.
Molly:
Anyway. But hold on, Matthew. Back to memory lane.
Matthew:
Yes.
Molly:
You know what? I told you to do Memory Lane first, and you went off talking about fireplaces. So I'm going to take this baton back from you.
Matthew:
Okay, take this batonnet,
Molly:
Yes. Okay. So memory lane. I, like you, I grew up seeing people chopping things with great precision on the Food Network.
Matthew:
Yeah. I saw Pa chopping wood out behind the little house.
Molly:
And extolling the virtues of having wonderful knife skills.
Matthew:
And self sufficiency.
Molly:
Yes. Oh, my God. Stop it. Anyway, and so I thought that it was important to have knife skills, with a capital K and a capital S. That said, I did once have an opportunity to take a knife skills class at the pantry here in Seattle. It was taught by a excellent and very opinionated teacher named Matteo Gillis. And I think that I learned some stuff. But I ultimately wound up being, what I was doing already was working just fine. And so I do know that I chop an onion a little bit differently, because of that class I took. But basically, if someone is watching me over my shoulder, and they think that I know what I'm doing in the kitchen, I feel very nervous to have them watch me chop things.
Matthew:
Of course.
Molly:
Because I'm very bad at basic things, like curling my fingers under on my helping hand, the non knife hand. Like try as I might, this is supposed to be the basic thing, curling your fingers under.
Matthew:
So you don't see chop them off.
Molly:
So you don't chop them, and so that you're guiding the knife blade, like almost.
Matthew:
Yes.
Molly:
And I don't do any of that.
Matthew:
I don't do that either. No. Not at all.
Molly:
And yet, I'm perfectly happy with how my food comes out.
Matthew:
Yes. I've sometimes successfully cooked an entire meal without ever curling my fingers.
Molly:
And I still have all my fingers.
Matthew:
Yeah, me too. Hi-five.
Molly:
So Matthew, do you think that a whole bunch of our listeners are going to be like, "Oh my God, I can't believe Matthew and Molly haven't figured out how to curl their fingers under- "
Matthew:
I don't think so.
Molly:
"... their helping hand." I do think that I hold my knife correctly. You know how they say to choke down on the blade.
Matthew:
Yeah, I do. I do that type of thumb and forefinger on either side of the blade.
Molly:
Exactly.
Matthew:
It is nice.
Molly:
Exactly. Yeah, I think that being able to hold my knife, like grip my knife correctly is something that's-
Matthew:
... something you deserve credit for somehow.
Molly:
Yeah.
Matthew:
Because I think probably many of our listeners just make a fist around the knife handle, and that works fine, too.
Molly:
That works fine, too. But I do like holding it the way I've been taught, but I don't want to do anything else I've been taught.
Matthew:
Okay. So important update. These are the titles of Little House books that I didn't think of. By the Shores of Silver Lake. Little Town on the Prairie. These Happy Golden Years. And I fucking forgot Farmer Boy.
Molly:
Oh my God.
Matthew:
If only Farmer Boy had been worked into that riff earlier-
Molly:
It would have been so much better.
Matthew:
... we would have been able to retire.
Molly:
Well, then we would have understood where the peaches in the water came from. Maybe the farmer was growing them.
Matthew:
Maybe the farmer was growing them, and they were plums because it was by the shores of Plum Creek.
Molly:
Oh, God. This is disappointing. Okay. Anyway, Matthew-
Matthew:
It's funny how Plum Creek sounds really idyllic, but Peach Creek sounds dumb.
Molly:
Matthew, could you tell me... I happen to know that you've taken a knife skills class. How did it stick for you?
Matthew:
I think... Okay. I don't really know where my onion chopping technique came from, not that it's original or unusual in any way. But I think I did take a knife skills class like it's still a top maybe in the mid '90s. And I don't know to what extent it really sunk in. I think... I don't know. Like I get by fine chopping stuff, just like you.
Molly:
Yep. Okay. Let's walk through some basics, and compare what we do. Matthew, if you are supposed to chop or dice an onion, walk me through the steps. What do you do?
Matthew:
Okay. I'm so excited to talk about this. So I think I feel like the big divide on... Okay. let's just go through it.
Molly:
Okay.
Matthew:
First, I have the onion pole to pole. Then I chop off the first half inch of the stem and where it gets bristly there. Do I mean the stem end or? Yeah, not the root end. The other end. Then I peel it, because I find it's easiest to peel the half after you've cut off that tip part. Then I make parallel slices parallel to the leaves of the onion, so also from pole to pole. So I hold the onion in place with my left hand, and make these parallel slices with my right hand. Usually I'm chopping fairly fine, I want to say, and to maybe quarter inch apart. And then I do not do the thing where I make a slice parallel to the cutting board, hardly ever. And then I go perpendicular to the slices I made, and make quarter inch-ish dice.
Molly:
Boom. Okay.
Matthew:
And then if I notice there are some pieces that snuck out there that are a little too big which usually happens, that I go after those pieces and cut them up a little.
Molly:
Okay. I do mine slightly differently. I usually cut off the stem end and the root end first, before I cut the onion in half. And I try when I think of it, to only take off as much of the root end as I really have to. Because the root end is what holds it together.
Matthew:
That's why I don't take any off before I start chopping.
Molly:
For some reason I do take some off, but just enough to get rid of the hairy stuff and the skin.
Matthew:
Sure.
Molly:
Anyway, so I lop off either end, then I stand it up on one of these new leaf flat ends, and cut it in half. Then I peel it, and then I let one half at a time, flat-side-down on the cutting board. And I do make the slices that are parallel to the cutting board. So yeah, where my knife is parallel to the cutting board. And I have one hand, my helping hand, with let's say, the palm of it is flat on top of the onion. What I do often do that I was taught to do in that knife skills class is, I use my helping hand to-
Matthew:
I think we can all use a helping hand, sometimes.
Molly:
I could use a helping hand. I don't know really how to describe this. Basically, as the knife goes into the onion and is nearing the root end, because I've inserted the knife at the stem end, right?
Matthew:
Right.
Molly:
Okay. And as it's moving toward the root end, I sometimes will take the fingers of my helping hand, and put them on the top non sharp part of the blade, and insert the knife until the top part of it is flush with the stem end of the onion.
Matthew:
You're right. I've no idea what you just said.
Molly:
I cannot wait to see people's drawing like what you just described.
Matthew:
Right. Like do your fingers touch the knife for some reason?
Molly:
No. Well, my fingers aren't touching... Anyway, nevermind. Just forget it. I don't always do that.
Matthew:
So you cut your onions in some like otherworldly, very ghost manner.
Molly:
No. Okay, nevermind. What I was going to say though, forget that whole part, because I don't always do it, and I don't think it's that important. But what I was going to say is that, usually the height of my knife, from cutting edge to the back edge... What do you call the opposite of the cutting edge of your knife?
Matthew:
The spine.
Molly:
The spine. From the blade to the spine, is often the same height as like the onion half.
Matthew:
Okay. This is not while you're making the parallel, but the cuts parallel to the cutting board.
Molly:
This is while I'm making the cuts parallel to the cutting board. Forget it.
Matthew:
The spine is... So you're cutting downward at an angle.
Molly:
Nope.
Matthew:
This is... We got pretty far into this episode before realizing it was such a bad idea.
Molly:
Nevermind. Forget it.
Matthew:
Because like I'm going to be next. I'm going to be describing how I cut a carrot, and you'll be like, what? Like, they're what oval?
Molly:
No, forget everything I said. Basically... All right, Matthew.
Matthew:
Basically, you take the onion and you cut it up into pieces, and then you cook the pieces, right?
Molly:
I make parallel cuts. And then I do the cuts that are perpendicular to the cutting board. And then I cut across it. And so actually, I don't usually wind up with any pieces that I have to go back and cut smaller.
Matthew:
I think that's the point of the parallel cuts, is to avoid that. But I'm too lazy, and I feel like something's going to go wrong.
Molly:
Well, I mean, if you follow my description, yes, something will go wrong.
Matthew:
No. I follow that description, everything will work out perfectly.
Molly:
But what I also want to say is that, so when you're doing garlic, let's go from onion to garlic, if something says to chop garlic, how do you do that?
Matthew:
Okay. So I'll smash the clove a little bit with my finger or the side of the knife to make it easier to peel. Then I peel it, then I cut off a little root bit, and then I'll usually slice it roughly, and then me and spy just like putting my finger on the tip of the spine of the knife, and using that as a fulcrum, and just going over the garlic a few times. And I never really care if it's like super finely minced.
Molly:
Okay. I would say I usually do the same thing. Although even though when a recipe says to like minced garlic to a paste or whatever, I always dread doing that step because it feels so fiddly. But it's so satisfying, Matthew when-
Matthew:
... when it actually becomes a paste.
Molly:
Oh, my God. So once you get it chopped, then do you add a little bit of kosher salt to it, and then keep going?
Matthew:
No. I have done that, and I've seen it recommended, and I get the idea. But like at that point, I'm just like, I should have used the garlic press.
Molly:
No. I love... So once I've gotten my garlic chopped, then I grab a little pinch of kosher salt, and salt what I've got there. And then I keep going with chopping it alternating with-
Matthew:
You got it salted.
Molly:
... of salted smearing it with the knife.
Matthew:
No. I know this technique, and it is very cool.
Molly:
But what's really cool is that the salt helps draw out the moisture in the garlic. And so you know how garlic is quite sticky when you chop it?
Matthew:
Yes.
Molly:
Well, so at a certain point in turning it into a paste, it starts to give off this liquid that then makes it much easier to swipe it or sweep it off the knife. And I love that, and the salt really helps with that. And that is so gratifying.
Matthew:
What recipe would you use that paste in?
Molly:
I think I've used it in various like Indian recipes. I'm trying to think. There definitely are times when I ignore calls for garlic to be turned into a paste, and instead just press it like you said.
Matthew:
Sure.
Molly:
I do love having a garlic press around. I'm drawing a little bit of a blank right now, honestly. Oh, I know.
Matthew:
So maybe you just it to impress people.
Molly:
No. I also do it sometimes as part of a marinade.
Matthew:
Okay. That makes sense.
Molly:
Yeah. For instance, because you want it to really be able to smear on the meat, and to not have these hunks that can burn.
Matthew:
You got to smear. All smear no honk.
Molly:
All smear, no honk. Okay, Matthew. What should we do next? What about a carrot? How do you chop a carrot?
Matthew:
So I don't feel like I'm very good at chopping carrots. But also it doesn't really matter.
Molly:
That's good.
Matthew:
The thing about carrots is, they have a shape, like the tapered shape of the carrot makes it complicated to chop.
Molly:
It's so troublesome.
Matthew:
What I want is a carrot that's a perfect rectangular solid.
Molly:
Yes. Do you think anybody... You know how like in Japan you can get melons that have been grown with-
Matthew:
... like a cube.
Molly:
.... like a cube?
Matthew:
Yeah.
Molly:
Can we get carrots like that?
Matthew:
I don't see why not. We can like mess with anything else.
Molly:
Let's ask Farmer Boy.
Matthew:
You know who we should put on this project? Farmer Boy. Almanzo needs to grow square carrots. I think that's who Farmer Boy is.
Molly:
I never read Farmer Boy, actually.
Matthew:
So it depends on what my goal is. So I just want like minced carrots, then I'll just cut rough slices and then mince them.
Molly:
I never mince carrots. When do you mince carrots?
Matthew:
For making bowling easy?
Molly:
I just do a fine chop. I mean, mince is really small.
Matthew:
Okay.
Molly:
Maybe your bowling [crosstalk 00:25:00] is better than mine.
Matthew:
It might be. For most things, I will just cut the carrot in half, cross-wise so there's a thinner part and a thicker part, and cut the thicker part into quarters, and the thinner part into halves maybe, and then chop across that.
Molly:
I think that sounds fair. I do that too.
Matthew:
The tricky one is when I want to julienne the carrot, and get for making carrot and daikon pickle, for example. And it's never very even, but also it just doesn't matter.
Molly:
Yeah. What are instances when you do think it matters? Because I think we're going to have a lot of listeners who are like, "Guys, size matters."
Matthew:
Yeah, you're right. I do think that, that stereotype about our listeners is accurate. In home cooking, like in what circumstance could it matter? I guess if one of my carrot pieces was like three inches in diameter, and one of them was like a millimeter, and I put them through them both into a stew.
Molly:
Yeah, that would be fucked up, man.
Matthew:
That would be pretty fucked up. Yeah.
Molly:
I mean, I think it's important if you're roasting vegetables.
Matthew:
You're right.
Molly:
You want them to all be around the same size. And I do-
Matthew:
Except I do like the two small piece of carrot that gets a little burned.
Molly:
But you know what's a real bummer is the too big piece of carrot.
Matthew:
That is bad. Yes, I agree.
Molly:
That is bad, because it does not get properly cooked, caramelized, et cetera.
Matthew:
Yeah. Parsnips are even worse than carrots because they have like the woody core that you want to remove. And like getting them fairly consistent in size is important, especially for roasting, and I love roasted parsnips. So I will go to the trouble for a parsnip.
Molly:
I will say too.
Matthew:
But I don't like it.
Molly:
Yeah, I will go to the trouble for a parsnip as well. In fact, I have some in my fridge right now. Maybe today I will go to the trouble. Has anybody ever made a bar called The Trouble? Like, hey, let's go to The Trouble.
Matthew:
That's good.
Molly:
Isn't that good?
Matthew:
I like that. It sounds like they would have a puppy atmosphere.
Molly:
Yeah, Matthew, you want to go to trivia? Trivia?
Matthew:
I mean, I feel like it maybe sounds a little too much like The Troubles. I don't know. I still like it.
Molly:
Okay. All right. I'll try.
Matthew:
You'll try what? You'll try opening this bar? I would not recommend that.
Molly:
Oh, you mean a bar? In a pandemic? That doesn't sound like a good idea to you?
Matthew:
I don't know. I mean, it says it has trouble right in the name. So I guess, people signing a waiver just by showing up.
Molly:
You are warned.
Matthew:
That's right.
Molly:
Matthew, let's talk about what knives we actually use.
Matthew:
Oh, I'm excited, and also a little scared for this because I have fancy knives that are going to make me sound like a fancy person.
Molly:
Yeah. Okay. You want to go first?
Matthew:
Yeah. Okay. So my day-in and day-out knife, I think I've had for... I got it in like the early days of eGullet, I want to say so. So probably had it-
Molly:
... 20 years?
Matthew:
Almost 20 years now. Maybe like 18 or 19 years, is a Masamoto VG-10. It is a Japanese chef's knife. So it is very similar in design to a Western chef's knife, with a couple of key differences. It's 9.4 inches or 240 millimeters long. It's going to easily outlast me. It's a really wonderful piece of equipment that was not cheap, but also not crazy expensive either. I think it was 150 bucks, probably more now.
Molly:
That's truly not terrible.
Matthew:
Yeah, I mean, it's obviously going to last forever unless something terrible happens.
Molly:
What is the blade made of?
Matthew:
It is made of VG-10 steel, which is a pretty good like all around hard stainless steel that's not too hard to sharpen easily.
Molly:
Got it. Okay.
Matthew:
The things that make a Japanese chef's knife different from a Western style chef's knife is that, it doesn't have a bolster, which is the thick part at the base of the blade closest to the handle. And the edge is slightly asymmetrical, which makes it sharper, but also you have to be a little more careful with it because it would roll over or crack more easily, and have to be resharpened. Maybe you also have to use a slightly different technique, because it wants to roll toward the right as you're slicing. But you get used to that really easily.
Molly:
Okay. Well, interesting. All right.
Matthew:
So that's my number-one knife. I have one other that I use often.
Molly:
So what's the other one?
Matthew:
The other one guess what, it's also Japanese. It is a Tojiro DP Honesuki, which is a chicken boning knife. And I do use it for boning chicken, but also for a million other things. It's like a really heavy duty, triangular blade utility knife, that is just feels like it's the right thing for everything that I'm not going to use my chef's knife for.
Molly:
Wow. And how long is it?
Matthew:
The blade is like maybe five inches long.
Molly:
And at its deepest, how deep is the blade?
Matthew:
I'm going to say-
Molly:
Or tall, how tall is it?
Matthew:
... a little over an inch. So definitely deeper than a typical paring knife. It would not be good as a paring knife. And I never use a paring knife for paring things.
Molly:
I don't think I've ever noticed your knives. But I think that's the thing with knives in general that I enjoy using and that stand the test of time for me, they're not flashy. They're just really good tools.
Matthew:
I think I only really notice a knife if it's dull.
Molly:
Yes. Good point. The knife that I use all the time, is one that I've had for almost 14 years, actually. I remember because Brandon and I got it as a wedding gift. It is Japanese. It's Ryusen Blazen, is the brand. And it's actually... So around the time that we got married, which was 2007, was like Santoku knives were very trendy. They were very trendy. We already had some chef's knives. I also have a couple chef's knives that were my parents' when I was a kid, and that I remember my dad sent me off with when I moved to Seattle. I don't tend to use those. Because since I got this Santoku, it has become like my number one thing. And I'm aware too, that it has changed the way that I use a knife, in that with a Santoku you don't do the rocking motion, that people are taught. When you're using a chef's knife and you're taking a knife skills class or whatever, you're taught to have a rocking motion, right?
Matthew:
Yeah.
Molly:
It's difficult to do that with a Santoku, because the blade is flat.
Matthew:
You're right. I didn't mention that when I was talking about my chef's knife. The Japanese chef's knife, even the longer chef's knife does not have a very curved edge. And so also does not really lend itself to a rocking motion.
Molly:
Yeah. So with the Santoku, I use more of an up and down motion. So it's interesting because every now and then, like recently, when I was-
Matthew:
I like to mix it up with some rocking motion, and some up and down motion-
Molly:
Recently-
Matthew:
... in the kitchen.
Molly:
... when I was helping June use the knife to cut something. And I was trying to show her how to grip the knife, and how to do a rocking motion. Because in my mind, that's what you're supposed to do. It suddenly occurred to me like, oh God, that's not very intuitive to do with a flat-bladed knife, like a Santoku. So anyway, I have stuck with this knife, and really enjoy it. It's a great everyday knife. It holds its edge quite well. It's just the right weight for me, and my body size too. I think that's a really important thing.
Matthew:
Have I used this knife? I bet I have.
Molly:
You probably have. It is like my all-around knife.
Matthew:
Sure.
Molly:
I also I have paring knives, and I don't use them much. I even have like a seven-inch Ryusen Blazen utility knife. But the weird thing about that knife is, God, the blade chips crazy easy. And I am really careful with my knives, and I'm constantly fucking up the blade of that knife. But I don't even know how.
Matthew:
Yeah, that could be a sharpening issue or just like what steel it's made of.
Molly:
I think it's what steel it's made of.
Matthew:
Or maybe you're doing something wrong.
Molly:
I mean, the only thing I can think that would be chipping it is, the brief-
Matthew:
Do you ever try shave pieces off, like a big block of marble to reveal the sculpture within that wants to get out using that knife?
Molly:
You know, lately I've been doing more quilting than chiseling.
Matthew:
More quilting than chiseling. That's our motto.
Molly:
I've been focusing all my crafting energies in that direction rather than sculpting lately.
Matthew:
So I don't imagine quilting would do much to chip a knife blade, but I don't know much about quilting.
Molly:
Yeah. But the knife that I really want to talk about, is this knife that doesn't look like much. It is called a German breakfast knife.
Matthew:
I love that name.
Molly:
And it is like the size... It's maybe five, five-and-a-half inches long in the blade. It's got a wooden handle. And the blade is rounded at the end. So you can't really use it as a paring knife or anything where you need to have a really nice sharp-pointed tip.
Matthew:
Yeah. It looks really cute though. I really like it.
Molly:
It's so cute. And what is amazing about it is that, it is wicked sharp. So mine is made by Robert Birger, a German manufacturer. And it's carbon steel. It's the only knife I use regularly that's carbon steel. Because like they stay so sharp, but they also rust, and you got to take really good care of them.
Matthew:
You have to wash and dry it immediately after you use it every time.
Molly:
Totally. But I love this knife so much. I've had it since 2010. You can not only use it to butter things because of that rounded end. But it's also so sharp that it is my best knife for cutting hard fruits like apples and pears.
Matthew:
Like when you were on the banks of Plum Creek.
Molly:
Yes. And Peach Creek too, and Silver Lake. Yes, I brought my apples and my German breakfast knife, and I feasted.
Matthew:
Do you ever use it for things other than breakfast? And is that legal?
Molly:
We pretty much never use it for breakfast, in fact. Well, you can imagine if you were eating breakfast in Germany, and maybe you were having some like a dense seeded rye bread with some liverversed, or butter and jam, you could use this knife not only to cut the bread, but also to do all the spreads on it.
Matthew:
Oh, I feel a day of perfect meals coming on.
Molly:
Yes. But we tend to use it most for slicing apples and other hard fruits, and for cake. I think this is the perfect knife for cutting through an almond cake.
Matthew:
Have you made any more snacking cakes from that snacking cakes book?
Molly:
I actually haven't used it yet. I just bought the book. I haven't used it yet.
Matthew:
I think while at the show, Laurie has made three snacking cakes so far, and you know I'm a cake skeptic, but I love snacking cakes.
Molly:
Oh my God. Snacking cakes are the only kind of cake for me.
Matthew:
Okay.
Molly:
Anyway, so-
Matthew:
Why didn't you tell me this before? Because I was always thinking that cake meant like birthday cake.
Molly:
No. Cake means like all kinds of things. Like God, think about like a bundt cake, right?
Matthew:
Yeah. I'm thinking about a bundt cake.
Molly:
Oh my God, bundt cake. Just having a bundt cake on the counter, like talk about day of perfect meals.
Matthew:
Yes.
Molly:
Bundt cake on the counter, or like a loaf cake with some a glaze over the top of it. Or an almond cake with no glaze, no frosting, no nothing. All these things, ideal afternoon snack.
Matthew:
I don't know if I have the knife skills to cut a cake.
Molly:
I am drooling just thinking about snacking cakes.
Matthew:
You know why I love the name German breakfast knife. Have you watched the show Parks and Recreation?
Molly:
I have not. I've only seen bits and pieces.
Matthew:
That's fine. I'm not trying to show shame you. There's an episode where the gang is staying at a rural Bed and Breakfast. That they've like fled a campsite or something, and are stuck at this Bed and Breakfast that they don't want to be at. And the proprietor says, "For breakfast we have a selection of German muffins." And Ron Swanson played by Nick Offerman whispers, "What the fuck is a German muffin?" It's one of my favorite things I've ever heard.
Molly:
Awesome. Well, we'll put up a link in the show notes to the Robert Birger German breakfast knife which you can buy from this great kitchenware store in Berlin called [inaudible 00:38:09]. I'm sure you can buy it from other places. It's like a 26-euro knife, I think.
Matthew:
Nice.
Molly:
Yeah. So it's not expensive. And I'm telling you, I've never sharpened mine in 11 years. And I use it every day, and I love it.
Matthew:
Okay. We could link to my knives also, but you don't need to buy them. The knives you have are probably fine.
Molly:
Yeah.
Matthew:
Speaking of sharpening, do you sharpen your own knife?
Molly:
I don't. I have never attempted to sharpen. Well, I do have like... Hold on. I do have a steel. But I only think to hone my knives every couple months. And I think they're so far gone at this point that honing them doesn't make a big difference.
Matthew:
Probably.
Molly:
That said, they still are way the hell sharper than your average knife. I mean, if they were dull, I would take them to be sharpened.
Matthew:
Sure. No, I trust you. I do sharpen my own knives. I love doing it. I do it maybe every six months. And I have a selection of sharpening stones. This is like the most dad thing I do probably.
Molly:
That is such a dad thing.
Matthew:
Like under the bed, I have a little green plastic caddy with my sharpening supplies. I've got like a four different sharpening stones, I think some of which have to be soaked in water before you use them, I have like this deburring felt.
Molly:
Deburring.
Matthew:
For removing all your burrs. I will set up at the table and just sharpen knives for a little while. I often cut myself while doing it, which also feels like a very bad thing to do. The only thing about it that doesn't feel like kind of macho is that, in order to get the best angle for holding the knife against the stone, I do have to make myself a booster seat consisting of a couple of big Cook Illustrated cookbooks and sit on that booster seat.
Molly:
Oh my God. We have like a memory foam pad that we keep on whatever... Like right now I have it on the chair that I'm using to work in most of the time. But I love the brand name of it. It's called Comfy Life.
Matthew:
I think I want one of these. Because I've been using just like an old flat bed pillow for this for the entire pandemic. And why do I not have a memory foam pad for my butt?
Molly:
I'm really happy with this. It's like horseshoe shaped, so there's airflow near your parts.
Matthew:
Just like my butt.
Molly:
Just like your butt. And it lifts me up just enough that my dining table is the right height for me to use as a desk. And it also just feels a lot better on my back. And anyway, Comfy Life. Comfy life and German breakfast knives, it's really all you need.
Matthew:
Okay. Comfy knife, comfy life, I've always said. Oh, you had one other question. So another thing I wanted to mention is that, for some people, their everyday knife, like all purpose knife, is a Chinese cleaver, which is not something that I've ever learned to use, but I love watching people use it.
Molly:
Oh my God, yes.
Matthew:
Because there's no rocking motion use with that. It's like very like up and down, slicing chopping kind of knife. And people who are good with a Chinese cleaver, even more so than what they say about a Western chef's knife just becomes like an extension of your hand, and you can use it to pick up a bunch of stuff that you just chopped, and throw it into a wort.
Molly:
Because of the width of it. Like it almost acts as like a bench scraper. Yes. I mean, I remember watching Martin Yan. Was he on the Food Network, or where was he?
Matthew:
No. He was... Yan Can Cook was on PBS, I think.
Molly:
Okay. God, I mean, I could watch that all day.
Matthew:
Oh, absolutely. Like taking down, cutting a chicken up into pieces in like 47 seconds.
Molly:
I think that has to be the coolest thing you'll be able to do with a knife.
Matthew:
Yes. What is your favorite thing to chop?
Molly:
Oh my God, celery. Absolutely.
Matthew:
Me too.
Molly:
Celery, because it... Well, for one thing, it's so easy in that I usually run my knife, I make cuts parallel to the stock. And then I just cut across it. And so it's very easy to do. It's quite easy to do reasonably well. And it makes the world's best sound.
Matthew:
Yeah. Like sneak, sneak, sneak. Even if you're not using a serrated knife, the sound itself is serrated as you're cutting through each of the-
Molly:
... the little strings.
Matthew:
Yeah, the strings of the celery. So satisfying.
Molly:
Yeah. I've never used a serrated knife to cut through celery.
Matthew:
No, I haven't either. I was like going for a metaphor, it didn't really work.
Molly:
I was going to say, "Matthew, let's be clear here. We're not using serrated knives to cut through- "
Matthew:
No.
Molly:
"... celery."
Matthew:
Do you use a serrated knife to cut a tomato, as I know some people do?
Molly:
When I was my early 20s living in an apartment by myself for the first time, I do remember getting a small serrated knife to use specifically as a tomato knife. And I have to say that I gave up on it, like I just didn't care that much. Not because I don't care that my tomatoes are sliced cleanly. I do.
Matthew:
I know this about you.
Molly:
But my everyday Santoku, if I am treating it well, is sharp enough to cut through a tomato.
Matthew:
Yeah, same here. I use my chef's knife for a tomato.
Molly:
Okay, fair enough.
Matthew:
I don't even slice the tomato very often. Like usually if I'm cutting up a tomato, it's a canned tomato that would cut fine with any knife.
Molly:
Cut fine with like your thumbs.
Matthew:
Yes, exactly. I've gotten so into having a couple of cans of peeled tomatoes in juice around.
Molly:
Did you not do that before?
Matthew:
Not consistently. And sometimes, often I would buy like the diced tomatoes, which I think are fine, but I like the whole tomatoes better.
Molly:
Yeah. I think the whole tomatoes taste better.
Matthew:
I've been using it to make homemade pizza sauce, and for that Marcela Hazan, butter tomato sauce that you like, and for Pico de Gallo and stuff. We just find buying like Kroger brand, like 99-cent cans of tomatoes, and it's really comforting having them around.
Molly:
That's so nice. I'm happy for you. I think we've we've reached the segments part of the show, Matthew.
Matthew:
Yeah, we've cut our show into segments using a sharp chef's knife. And now we're going to suprem those segments.
Molly:
Do we have any spilled mail?
Matthew:
I don't believe we have any spilled mail this week. Get in touch. Contact at SpilledMilkPodcast.com. Ask us-
Molly:
Wow. Ask us [inaudible 00:45:09].
Matthew:
Ask us a good question, or tell us something or whatever. I don't know. I don't know anymore. But we have Cute Animals.
Molly:
Oh goody.
Matthew:
I keep pausing as if I think Abby's on the line, and he's going to play the theme music in real time, which is not how this works.
Molly:
That is adorable. Okay, hold on. I'm going to go look for the cute animal video. Shoot. I didn't pull it up.
Matthew:
Just search YouTube for a sneezing quokka. A quokka is like a little wallaby, or I think, or possibly wombat. I always get this confused.
Molly:
It's spelled Q-U-O-K-K-A.
Matthew:
Yes. Obviously-
Molly:
Oh my God, Matthew. It's so cute.
Matthew:
Yeah. There are a lot of quokka videos, but this one is sneezing.
Molly:
Oh my God. What a precious boo boo.
Matthew:
Isn't that an adorable precious boo boo?
Molly:
It is so cute. I've never seen a quokka before.
Matthew:
There are so many animals we've never seen.
Molly:
Oh my God. It's so cute, Matthew. This animal is one of my new favorite things.
Matthew:
Oh, I'm so glad.
Molly:
Does it hop like a kangaroo?
Matthew:
I think it does. Look at those legs.
Molly:
Look at those legs. Look at those pins, man.
Matthew:
Those quokka legs, they go all the way up.
Molly:
Wait, hold on.
Matthew:
Was that ever a real expression? Because it's so weird.
Molly:
No, I've never heard that. Wait, I'm watching a video about baby quokkas now. I didn't realize... Okay. So it's a marsupial.
Matthew:
Oh, yeah. So they hang out in the pouch.
Molly:
Oh my God. They have long tails like rats.
Matthew:
Yeah, they are kind of rat-like.
Molly:
They're kind of like big cuter rats. Cuter rats. I mean, I think rats are okay cute. But Oh my God, these guys have such cute snouts.
Matthew:
Yep. So that's the sneezing quokka. Sneezing is not part of the species name or anything. It's just this one happened to be sneezing. Isn't it great when animals sneeze?
Molly:
Oh my God, it's the best.
Matthew:
Remember when we saw a sneezing owl.
Molly:
We did?
Matthew:
Yes. When we went to the owl café, one of the owls was sneezing.
Molly:
I don't remember that.
Matthew:
Like birds can sneeze. I don't think I knew that until then.
Molly:
My dog, Alice, sneezes when she gets excited. She sneezes repeatedly, and it's really cute. Oh my God, Matthew. I can't stop watching this video. I'm watching one called baby quokkas are the cutest animals in the world.
Matthew:
Am I now forgiven for the giant river otter that I subjected you to last week?
Molly:
Yes, you are. Except here's what's alarming to me, Matthew, is that YouTube still has the giant river otter over in the sidebar just because-
Matthew:
Yeah. They tend to lurk in sidebars, and then bite you, and then eat your face off. Do you remember that part in By The shores of Plum Creek when the creek got infested with river otters that terrorized the family for months?
Molly:
All right. So shall we move on to-
Matthew:
Let's do it.
Molly:
All right. Let's move into river otter territory.
Matthew:
What?
Molly:
No. We're going to move into Now But Wow. This is our show... I mean, this is our second-
Matthew:
This is our show. Yes.
Molly:
It's our segment where we talk about stuff we're into this week. And Matthew, So Ash and I love watching... Like there's just nothing like watching a good gay movie or a good gay show. Okay. And so we're always on the lookout for a really good gay stuff. And in this case, one night last week, we watched a movie called Twilight's Kiss, which is made in Hong Kong, Hong Kong actors. It's in Cantonese. And it is the story of two closeted queer men in their late 60s, early 70s. One of them is married. And it's this very quiet film about how they're negotiating their love amidst the constraints of their family lives, especially in Hong Kong, where it's typical for multiple generations to live together. And it was gorgeous. It was tender. I kept thinking about how, like what a big deal it was for these actors to commit to playing these roles.
Matthew:
Oh, that's really cool.
Molly:
It was also extremely sad, deeply sad. Like Ash felt just devastated by these men's lives throughout the entire thing. I found it quite beautiful, and the beauty of it overcame the terrible sadness of it. But anyway, you can find it on Film Forum, and you can rent it to watch at home. You can go to FilmForumHome.org, and search for Twilight's Kiss. Highly recommend. God. Yeah. Oh man, so good.
Matthew:
Okay. Mine. Okay, so there's a bit of story here. First of all, how much backstory do I want here? So I'm of the age where like a thing happened to my phone and I can't figure out how to fix it, and my phone is doing a thing and I need to ask a young person for tech support. And here's the thing that happened, and I really don't have an explanation. You know how sometimes you hit play on your phone, and you expect it to start, pick up on the podcast you were listening to, but instead it plays something from your music library. Has this ever happened to you? Okay. Just say yes, for the purpose of the bit.
Molly:
Yes. Oh, God. It happens all the time.
Matthew:
So the song that always starts playing on my phone is a song that I don't recall ever putting on my phone, which is a live version of Sexy Back by Justin Timberlake. And it's so energetic.
Molly:
This is the best.
Matthew:
And it's not always what I'm looking for. And this is not my recommendation myself. I mean, Justin Timberlake is fine. He apologized for some stuff he did, which is great. And I have no problem with that song. But sometimes what I do want is a sexy song that's like the opposite of that, that's like a smooth insinuating sort of sexy song. And there is this singer songwriter that I absolutely adore named Victoria Monet. I don't think she is super well-known as a performer. Although she has been Grammy nominated as a songwriter. I realized recently that some of my favorite songs of hers came out when she was like 20 or 21 years old, which makes me feel very jealous. But she has a brand new single called FUCK, which stands for Friend You Can Keep.
Molly:
Friend You Can Keep Oh my God.
Matthew:
It's cute. It's playful. It's a wonderfully written song. She's a great singer. Find it on all the platforms. Victoria Monet, FUCK.
Molly:
Oh my God, I love this. And I love how you got to this story. Okay.
Matthew:
Yeah. The other thing I realized recently was that when I was a kid... This episode needs to be longer, right?
Molly:
Yeah.
Matthew:
When I was a kid, one of my favorite things to do was go to OMSI, the Oregon Museum of Science and Industry. Have you ever been?
Molly:
I have been.
Matthew:
Yeah. So my parents would take me to OMSI or I would go with friends. And I would be going there starting from when I was maybe five years old. I have vivid memories. And one thing that I remember really well was seeing the posters for the laser shows and thinking like, "I don't know what this is, but definitely sounds like a cool thing that I want to do when I'm older." And of course, the staple laser show poster was laser Pink Floyd The Wall. And I did not know what a Pink Floyd was. The thing I realized this week was, at the time I was seeing that poster, that album had come out two years prior. It was like a new-ish Pink Floyd album.
Molly:
Oh my God.
Matthew:
Isn't that wild?
Molly:
That is wild. Ash keeps a running list on their phone of dumb stuff I've said.
Matthew:
That's great.
Molly:
Yeah. Because I say dumb stuff all the time.
Matthew:
What's that like?
Molly:
Anyway, recently, we were... I don't know. We were sitting on the sofa or something. Anyway, I just all of a sudden, I was, "Dude, I am 42." And I started thinking about how 42... Like if certain animals were 42. I was like, "If I were a turtle, I'd be like a pretty old turtle."
Matthew:
Would you? But not like a giant tortoise?
Molly:
No. But I wouldn't be like that special. But if I were a dog, I'd be like a miracle dog. Like call the tabloids. And if I were a horse, I'd be like one-in-a-million horse. Because horses living the 30 is a normal thing. 42, not so much. So anyway-
Matthew:
I think you are a one-in-a-million horse.
Molly:
Oh, thank you. Anyway, this is a fun thing to sit around and do. Think about your age, and what it would be like if you were an animal that age.
Matthew:
I'm going to repeat a joke, even though I don't remember who told it, but it was one of my favorite jokes that I probably heard on a podcast, which is that, all the dogs are just waiting around for someday one of them to turn 21 so that that dog can buy beer for everyone else.
Molly:
That's a good one. I like it.
Matthew:
All right.
Molly:
Oh my God, Matthew. Okay, we got-
Matthew:
I wonder how long quokkas live.
Molly:
We got to edit this thing down. Okay.
Matthew:
All right. You can find us online at SpilledMilkPodcast.com, and on Reddit at Reddit.com/r/spilledmilkedpodcast. If you suggest an episode topic there, maybe we'll do it. Lexapo did, and we just did it.
Molly:
Yay. Look, we did something.
Matthew:
Our producer is Abby Cerquitella. And until next time, thanks for listening to Spilled Milk, The show that never says dumb stuff.
Molly:
Nope. I'm Molly Wizenberg.
Matthew:
And I'm Matthew Amster-Burton.
Molly:
I just turned and looked at myself in the mirror, because I'm here in my bathroom. I mean, I'm here in my closet.
Matthew:
Yeah.