471: Apple Pie
Matthew:
I'm Matthew.
Molly:
And I'm Molly.
Matthew:
And this is Spilled Milk, the show where we cook something delicious, eat it all, and you can't have it.
Molly:
Today, we are talking about apple pie. Happy new year, everyone, it's apple pie time.
Matthew:
It's pie time. It's National Pie Month, that's probably a real thing, that's probably not in January, but who knows.
Molly:
Yeah, I doubt it's in January.
Matthew:
Since all those things are meaningless anyway, we can declare it pie month and I dare the pie people to try and stop us.
Molly:
Yeah, I do too.
Matthew:
Let's start off this episode by picking a fight with a pie people.
Molly:
Do you think that the pie people come and break down your door in the middle of the night like they do when the FBI's going to take... FBI? Would it be the FBI who would come take you away?
Matthew:
I think the FBI can come and take you away.
Molly:
Okay. Well, so is there like [crosstalk 00:00:50]
Matthew:
I will check the website, but yeah.
Molly:
-a FB pie?
Matthew:
There is [crosstalk 00:00:53]
Molly:
See what I did there? Oh wow. See what I did there?
Matthew:
Yes. The FB pie will come or is it the F-P-I-E? Nevermind. I think the pie police, is that what you're calling them? I already forgot. You know how, like if you set a pie out to cool on your window sale, a neighborhood bandit will come and steal it? I think the pie police do the opposite. They take a pie and they throw it through your window.
Molly:
Oh, okay. Fair enough.
Matthew:
So, on the one hand, it's very aggressive, but also you get a free pie.
Molly:
It's great. I'll take it. Okay. Well, hold on. Before we keep going down this apple pie lane...
Matthew:
Pie lane, yeah.
Molly:
I bet there's a street called Apple pie lane.
Matthew:
I bet there is.
Molly:
Anyway, before we do that, we wanted to say something about the Chinese almond cookies from Holiday Cookies Two.
Matthew:
Yes. I sat on that episode that I was skeptical that they were a real Chinese cookie and Lyft [inaudible 00:01:52] on Reddit, you should definitely visit our Reddit, reddit.com/r/everythingspilledmilk, wrote to let us know that I was completely wrong about this. They are absolutely a real Chinese cookie. In Chinese, they're called [foregin language 00:02:03], which means almond crisps, and they are pretty much just like I described. They're an almond cookie with an almond pressed into the middle.
Molly:
Wow! Okay. I feel like I've seen pictures of these.
Matthew:
Yes, absolutely. There are a very common cookie and I did not know that they were genuinely Chinese and I apologize for making assumptions.
Molly:
Oh, well, I think that at least given the kind of year that 2020 was, you made the right assumption in assuming that white people were doing bad things with other people's food.
Matthew:
Yeah. Okay, great. I'll Pat myself on the back for that.
Molly:
Wait a minute, I just noticed that at the top of our agenda, it says that this episode is going to air January 7th, 2020. We're trying time traveling again.
Matthew:
Oh no, this is bad.
Molly:
Were we talking recently about doing a Groundhog Day of holiday cookies episodes? This is like a really big holiday cookie that you bake in a tin.
Matthew:
This whole year? Or wait, what represents the cookie in this scenario?
Molly:
Apple pie.
Matthew:
Oh, apple pie is a big ass cookie. Yes.
Molly:
Yeah, and so we promised our listeners that we would do holiday cookies over and over and over again. It would be like Groundhog Day, and basically we've done that here by accidentally writing the wrong year on our agenda.
Matthew:
Yeah. I'm very upset about this, but this is good though, because there are lots of aspects of apple pie that you can get into an argument about, but I didn't realize one of them was, is apple pie a cookie?
Molly:
I'm so glad that we've gotten right down to the nitty gritties, first step.
Matthew:
This was suggested by listener Kate.
Molly:
Thank you, listener Kate.
Matthew:
Who I don't think is Kate McDermott, author of Pie Camp and other great books about pies.
Molly:
Could also be Kate Leibow. Don't think it's her either-
Matthew:
That's true.
Molly:
-but she's also a pie [crosstalk 00:03:50].
Matthew:
There's a lot of pie Kates, apparently.
Molly:
A lot of [crosstalk 00:03:52]
Matthew:
We've got at least three. Okay.
Molly:
Let's start a memory lane.
Matthew:
Wait, do you think that's who the pie police or the FB Pie are? Is like the three Kates of pie, who just come around enforcing pie laws?
Molly:
Wait, is there a third one?
Matthew:
Well, I think listener Kate is the third one.
Molly:
Oh, okay. All right. I think you're right. I think that's who FB Pie is.
Matthew:
Cool. That sounds like a great gang.
Molly:
Okay. Matthew, let's travel to memory lane.
Matthew:
I don't really have a lot of memories of pie. Pie has never been a premiere dessert in my dessert cabinet. I definitely did eat pie as a kid, but it was never something that was like a special event.
Molly:
Yeah, I definitely come from a family that likes other things above pie. So I would agree. In fact, I think as a kid, I would have actively chosen not to have a pie if it were presented to me, because so often-
Matthew:
Wow!
Molly:
-at least-
Matthew:
This is the pie episode, folks.
Molly:
-because so often, at least, when I was growing up and where I was growing up, a pie often meant that it had canned filling in it, or super gloopy filling, and I had a lot of texture aversions as a kid.
Matthew:
Yeah. Okay. I think we're getting to the nub of something that I knew we were going to get into on this episode sooner or later, which is that most pies are bad.
Molly:
I know, it's so interesting, because this whole fake war that has come up between cakes and pies over the last like 20 years of the internet, or something?
Matthew:
Well, it started as a fake war, but it's gotten pretty bloody.
Molly:
But the truth is [crosstalk 00:05:30] so many pies are not very good. And I get it, so many cakes are not very good either, but I think I would take a shitty cake over a pie any day.
Matthew:
That's a tough call. Do I have to choose one? Could I just-
Molly:
Yap.
Matthew:
-not eat either of them?
Molly:
You got to choose one.
Matthew:
Yeah, okay. I guess I'll take shitty cake.
Molly:
I love a grocery store cake with crusty sugary frosting. That's technically like-
Matthew:
Yeah, I don't love those. I like a bad chocolate cream pie, but that's sort of marginally pie, I think?
Molly:
Okay. Well anyway, we could go on, but all this to say, our memory lanes are very short. They're just non-starter lanes. There's like a sign there, but there's no lane.
Matthew:
Okay. We've established that there's almost definitely a street called Apple pie lane. Do you think there's one called Non-starter lane?
Molly:
Yeah.
Matthew:
Are there a lot of street names that have an obvious negative connotation? Because that would be pretty funny, if you grew up in like loser circle.
Molly:
I'm sure there's something.
Matthew:
I know.
Molly:
Hold on, Matthew...
Matthew:
Going nowhere road.
Molly:
I'm sure there are many nowhere roads.
Matthew:
Yeah, you're probably right.
Molly:
Okay. Well, hold on. Since our memory lane doesn't go anywhere, shall we travel back in time?
Matthew:
Yes, because apple pie is an old dessert.
Molly:
I believe it.
Matthew:
It was older than I expected. I imagined that I was going to look it up and it was going to be like, first appeared around 1830 or something. No, apple pie dates to the 14th century. There is this recipe going around that is allegedly from 1381. I feel it has a too good to be true quality to it.
Molly:
Certainly the name of it is too good to be true.
Matthew:
Yes, and all the reprints of it are from the 19th century. I think this may be a recreation, but there's lots and lots of historical attestations for apple pies going back many centuries in England.
Molly:
Oh. What's the name of the 1381 recipe?
Matthew:
It is [inaudible 00:07:39].
Molly:
I love that.
Matthew:
I'm just going to read the recipe in full.
Molly:
Okay.
Matthew:
Tack [inaudible 00:07:46] apples and [inaudible 00:07:47] spices and figures and raisins and pears, and when they are well a braid, colored with saffron well, and do it in a coffin and do it fourth to bake well.
Molly:
Do it in a coffin?
Matthew:
Have you ever done it in a coffin? Like in the movie, Once Bitten with Jim Carrey?
Molly:
Wait a minute. Will you read it again? I need to hear it again. Do it again.
Matthew:
Yeah. Tack [inaudible 00:08:09] apples and [inaudible 00:08:10] spices and figures and raisins and pears, and when they are well a braid, colored with saffron well, and do it in a coffin and do it fourth to bake well.
Molly:
There was a moment early in this that is very Swedish chef.
Matthew:
Yes, it certainly is.
Molly:
And then it suddenly becomes the count.
Matthew:
Do it in a co- [crosstalk 00:08:32] on Sesame street, talked about doing it in a coffin?
Molly:
Well, we've talked before about the count censored.
Matthew:
Oh, right. That's right. Have you seen the movie, Once Bitten with Jim Carrey?
Molly:
I haven't. No.
Matthew:
I feel like this is like-
Molly:
I've avoided a lot of Jim Carrey vehicles.
Matthew:
It's not a good movie, it's bad, but it was like an early PG 13 experience for me. I feel like it this movie we came out quite a long time ago. I'm going to look it up now because now it's going to turn out, it came out in 1994.
Molly:
Wait a minute, hold on. We got to go back to this, do it in a coffin thing. Did a coffin originally mean like a pastry crust?
Matthew:
I'm so glad you asked.
Molly:
Is that what people did with their dead? Did they wrap them in pastry crust?
Matthew:
Oh yeah, and then slow roasted them. A coffin apparently-
Molly:
Early cremation.
Matthew:
Right. -was a pastry crust that was like a serving dish that you wouldn't eat. Why?
Molly:
Well, I wouldn't eat a coffin.
Matthew:
No, I wouldn't eat a cof- but this is not the coffin that you get down at your local mortuary or mort- as I call it for sure. This was like a real dense crust, I guess. I don't really understand the concept of a crust that you don't eat, but apparently that was a thing. I feel like we ask for so much free work from a friend of the show, food historian, Ken Albala. But maybe he'll let me know why there used to be inedible crust.
Molly:
So is the definition of a coffin, a crust you don't eat?
Matthew:
I think it's a crust you don't eat. I don't know, that is what I was able to get from a little bit of Googling.
Molly:
I know that I'm pretty comfortable with death humor.
Matthew:
Yeah, me too.
Molly:
I apologize to any listeners who think the idea of what I just said is really beyond the pale.
Matthew:
I apologize to any listeners who are dead.
Molly:
I wonder how many of our listeners have died.
Matthew:
Oh God, definitely some. I don't like this at all. Now I feel sad. No, yeah, it's true.
Molly:
Sorry, I'm just thinking about like when I get my Alumni Magazine. This is a funny bit at all.
Matthew:
No, but we should pour something out in memory of our fallen listeners.
Molly:
All I have is some soda stream water in a bottle here.
Matthew:
Yeah. You and I are going to die someday. Are people gonna pour anything out for us?
Molly:
I hope so. Oh my God, Matthew. [crosstalk 00:11:10]
Matthew:
Get on the Reddit, what should people pour out for us?
Molly:
We should make some sort of a pact.
Matthew:
Oh, oh.
Molly:
If I go first-
Matthew:
This always ends well.
Molly:
If I go first, you'll put me in a coffin with some-
Matthew:
Yeah, edible crust. This is what Molly wanted.
Molly:
What am I supposed to do? Oh, wait, you know what? Wait, hold on, I'm thinking about all those recipes for... Isn't there like fish that's baked in a clay crust or things like that.
Matthew:
Yes.
Molly:
So is that a coffin?
Matthew:
I've done trout baked in a salt crust and you don't eat that. Maybe that's a coffin. Again, this is a middle English word that has not been used for centuries.
Molly:
I am so glad we're bringing it back. Happy new year, everybody.
Matthew:
That's how you make an apple pie. You take good apples and spices and figures and raisins in pears, which I think are pears, and you do it in a coffin. Oh, I looked up the movie Once Bitten. It came out in 1985, so I was right. I was like nine or 10 and I got to see this PG 13 movie where for story purposes, Jim Carrey has to lose his virginity, and so he fucks his girlfriend in a coffin.
Molly:
Wow.
Matthew:
Because there's vampires. I don't remember anything about the plot of the movie. Just that I got to see this mildly spicy movie.
Molly:
I remember a movie that I... I think we had it on Betamax when I was a kid was Peggy Sue Got Married. [crosstalk 00:12:44]
Matthew:
Oh, I remember when that came out. Was it Kathleen Turner?
Molly:
Yeah.
Matthew:
I don't think I've actually seen it.
Molly:
And she loses her virginity in the woods to this guy.
Matthew:
That's the coffin of biomes.
Molly:
I love that so much.
Matthew:
Thank you.
Molly:
I'm going to think about that the next time I go hiking, coffin of biomes.
Matthew:
I think the word biome is always funny. I majored in biology and so it came up a lot and I would always snicker a little bit and I don't even know why it's funny.
Molly:
Anyway, Peggy Sue loses her virginity in the woods to this motorcycle-riding poet guy, who's pretty much the one that everybody wants to lose their virginity to.
Matthew:
That sounds great.
Molly:
Right?
Matthew:
Yeah, except of [crosstalk 00:13:35]
Molly:
But he quotes a poem at her [inaudible 00:13:37].
Matthew:
Did you say, "Threw a poem at her?"
Molly:
No, he quoted a poem at her.
Matthew:
Okay, wait a minute. You said he was a poet. Did he quote one of his own poem?
Molly:
No, I think it was something else.
Matthew:
Oh, is that poem about [Tardus Annapolis 00:13:55].
Molly:
Anyway, I remember watching it as a young child and feeling like there was something going on that I didn't understand, and it wasn't just the sex, it was also the poem.
Matthew:
Yeah, do you remember what genre of poem it was?
Molly:
Would you like me to look it up?
Matthew:
Yeah, why don't you look it up? I'll tell you more about apple pie while you're looking up the poem from the recent movie, Peggy Sue Got Married that everyone's talking about. So there are apple pies from other countries like Holland. There's an American Dutch apple pie, and then there's actual Dutch, Dutch apple pie.
Molly:
I've got it.
Matthew:
Oh, okay. Wow, that was quick.
Molly:
It's Yeats, when you are old. That sounds like something [crosstalk 00:14:39]
Matthew:
That doesn't sound very sexy.
Molly:
-that you quote to somebody while you're having sex with them.
Matthew:
Wait, he was quoting the poem like literally during the sex?
Molly:
Yeah. Hold on.
Matthew:
Ow. Okay.
Molly:
Here we go.
Matthew:
I don't like that.
Molly:
Peggy Sue takes a late night motorcycle ride into the country with Michael, a mysterious beatnik, whom she never really knew in high school.
Matthew:
Mysterious beatnik.
Molly:
But the two of them smoke pot, and when Michael confesses that he wants to be a writer, Peggy Sue asks him to read one of his poems.
Matthew:
Oh no.
Molly:
Hold on Matthew, we're going to act this out. Okay?
Matthew:
Okay, I'm ready.
Molly:
Okay, this is what Michael says. Okay. Here's a new one. It's called tenderness. I couldn't sleep, so I thought I'd scream, betrayed by a kiss, sucking pods of bitterness in the madhouse of Dr. Dread, razor shreds of rats-
Matthew:
I thought that you were going to say Dr. Dre.
Molly:
- razor shreds of rat puke fall on my bare arms. I'm sorry, I guess I was trying to impress you. And then Peggy says-
Matthew:
Oh, it worked.
Molly:
-"Michael, you're as good as you looked." And he says, "I'll respect you for eternity. How many loved your moments of glad grace and loved your beauty with love false or true, but one man loved the pilgrim soul in you, and loved the sorrows of your changing face." I didn't write that. That's the Yeats.
Matthew:
Okay. So a couple things. First of all, I like how you said we were going to do this scene together and then you did both parts.
Molly:
Oh, sorry.
Matthew:
I think that's really what acting is all about. I recently watched this concert, the streaming concert with James Monroe Iglehart, who's a great Broadway actor and singer. He did this song from Dream Girls where he played three parts in this scene, and not only did he sing all of them amazingly. His character changed from second to second, and his whole face and body language, it was a command performance.
Molly:
It's like Jim Dale doing the audio version of Harry Porter.
Matthew:
Right. It's also like what you just did. It's almost the same.
Molly:
The razor shreds of rat puke fall.
Matthew:
Yeah. That seems like a bad... I can't believe that worked.
Molly:
No, it didn't work. I think what you couldn't see was my face as I was being both the poet and Peggy Sue, and [crosstalk 00:17:19]
Matthew:
So she was like, "No, I don't think so." And then he switched to Yeats and she was like, "All right, let's do this."
Molly:
Yeah.
Matthew:
The point is, Yeats makes the panties fall off.
Molly:
Oh, big time. You should try talking about Lori-
Matthew:
Or any not necessarily gendered underwear.
Molly:
The next time that you and Lori are getting started, you should talk about her pilgrim soul.
Matthew:
Yes, I noticed that. What do you think represents?
Molly:
Well, that she's a really like nomadic babe, going off on ships to find new lands.
Matthew:
That's pretty good. That's better than what that Yeats poem. If someone said to you, "I think of you as a nomadic babe, taking your pilgrim soul off on ships to find new lands."
Molly:
Oh, I'd be like, fuck me now.
Matthew:
Okie dokie.
Molly:
Oh my God. Okay.
Matthew:
All right, so pie.
Molly:
Can we just mark this episode, "not for June", please?
Matthew:
Yeah. I think the pie episode went into an American pie direction.
Molly:
It did. Okay, fine. Let's get back to it. All right, Matthew, tell me more about pie history.
Matthew:
Okay, let's get back to talking about, which is the best kind of pie to fuck.
Molly:
No.
Matthew:
Okay, so pie, but we're going to concentrate on the Anglo-American apple pie that probably almost all of our listeners are familiar with. There is no particular difference between English and American apple pie, which is something I don't think I realized until I started researching. American apple pie is made with apple varieties that were imported from Europe because the apples native to America or to the North American continent are crab apples, which are not very good for pieing. According to Wikipedia, in the 19th and 20th centuries, apple pie became a symbol of American prosperity and national pride. A newspaper article published in 1902 declared that, "No pie eating people can be permanently vanquished."
Molly:
Oh, wow.
Matthew:
I was just struck reading this about how countries can turn any stupid thing into a nationalistic symbol and it's the worst. I read a book last year about how during the Imperial era in Japan, cherry blossoms became a symbol of fascism, and you were supposed to die for your country like the cherry blossoms fall from the tree, and it was disgusting. It's like a pretty tree and they made it evil, somehow. I don't have a point here just like the idea that you could take a pie and turn it into a... Like, let's take this this pie and make it bad somehow.
Molly:
Those people should be tried as war criminals.
Matthew:
Yes, but to be clear, we're not talking about the three Kates of pie.
Molly:
No.
Matthew:
They had nothing to do with this.
Molly:
I recently read a book of interviews with Ursula Le Guin, and I'm currently deep down in Ursula Le Guin rabbit hole, which is a really great rabbit hole to be in.
Matthew:
Yeah, it sounds great.
Molly:
I read The Left Hand of Darkness a few years ago. Have you read it?
Matthew:
Yes, I have. But I read it when I was a kid.
Molly:
I think it's time to reread it both for you-
Matthew:
I probably read around the same time I saw the movie Once Bitten.
Molly:
Yeah. Okay.
Matthew:
So I should probably revisit both of those.
Molly:
I think it's time for me to reread it too. I forgotten that among many incredible things that she tries out with that world that she creates, I had forgotten that the world of that book had never had a war. Isn't that just a fascinating concept? A planet where there has never been a war.
Matthew:
That is a fascinating concept.
Molly:
How would people talk about pie there? Because pie is clearly, you've got to have...
Matthew:
No, I know what you mean. I want to live in a world where people are arguing over what goes into a castle lay or how do you make your pie crust, is like that's the greatest conflict that exists.
Molly:
Yes.
Matthew:
Right?
Molly:
I think, yeah.
Matthew:
Because you have to keep yourself entertained somehow and arguing about, is this the right kind of being? Seems like a good way to do that, but anything more intense than that conflict wise, I could leave it.
Molly:
I think it would get you banished to another planet, is what would happen.
Matthew:
What would?
Molly:
If you try to argue about anything more significant.
Matthew:
Okay. Yeah, no, I can think of some people who I would send to another planet.
Molly:
Yeah, okay, great. Anyway, yeah, okay, everybody. Here on Spilled Milk book club, look, I'm making a new segment, Matthew it's happening in real time.
Matthew:
Yes.
Molly:
It's time for Spilled Milk book club, everybody.
Matthew:
I was wondering if we were going to have book clubs. Are we going to read The Left Hand of Darkness? I'm in, I'll do it.
Molly:
I will too. I've got a copy right on my shelf and I'm ready to do it again. Yeah. Here in the month of January, everyone, here it's Spilled Milk book club, we're reading The Left Hand of Darkness.
Matthew:
What if every Spilled Milk listener read the same book? That's a thing, right?
Molly:
That is a thing. What are we going to do here as part of our Spilled Milk book club?
Matthew:
I think you're supposed to like drink cheap wine.
Molly:
Okay, and you're supposed to talk about anything, but the book, right?
Matthew:
Talk about anything but the book. Great.
Molly:
Perfect. We're doing it.
Matthew:
I think we are definitely going to do those things.
Molly:
Okay, great. Matthew, go on, tell me more about apple pie.
Matthew:
In England, the standard pie apple is the Bramley seedling, which is a big green apple with a reddish blush that's very tart. I've occasionally bought this apple at Jones Creek Farms at my local farmer's market, and they really are a great cooking apple. Once in a while, I've gotten one and just thought, I like a tart apple, I'm just going to eat this, it's way harder than a Granny Smith apple.
Molly:
Wow!
Matthew:
But it is an excellent cooking apple.
Molly:
Okay, cool. Matthew, I see that you found out that there's a tiny town in New Mexico called Pie Town.
Matthew:
Yep. Did I find out anything else about that? Nope. It's tiny, like less than 200 people. It may be a ghost town by now. Have you ever been to a ghost town? When I was a kid, there was one point when I thought a ghost town would be so cool to visit. I don't think I ever have visited a ghost town.
Molly:
I think that they only exist in the old West. New Mexico seems like a good enough place for a ghost town, right?
Matthew:
Yeah, definitely.
Molly:
I haven't thought about ghost towns in ages. I think those towns went the way of quicksand.
Matthew:
I was just going to say the same thing. Yes.
Molly:
Okay. Matthew, but let's get back to talking about apple pie. Have you ever made one and how often do you make these things?
Matthew:
I think I have made apple pie twice. Once, was many years ago. I think the recipe was from Thomas and de Lewis's pie book, which I think is called Tarts with Tops on. I think that's where the recipe was from. It was like a-
Molly:
That is an adorable title.
Matthew:
Isn't it delightful?
Molly:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Matthew:
I'm not positive that's where the recipe was from, but maybe. It was an apple pie with a cheddar crust where you put some cheddar cheese in the crust, which I thought sounded good, and it was good. It came out pretty tasty, but I didn't make it again. And then, Wife Of The Show, Lori, and I made apple pie two days ago. I did this apple slicing and adding the sugar and cinnamon and she did the rest.
Molly:
Okay. Would you make it again? Do you feel like, ah, this pie thing is really good, I'm going to make pies now.
Matthew:
That's an interesting and difficult question, because we made the pie, it looked really beautiful coming out of the oven. We let it cool. Waiting for desserts to cool is the hardest thing in my life. Then we had it and it was like, okay, this is pretty good, this is a pretty good pie. The bottom crust is a little soggy, but the top crust came out really nice, and the filling is tasty, but would I choose this over any number of dozens of other desserts? Nah. But then, the next day I heated up a piece of pie for breakfast.
Molly:
Oh, you heated it up?
Matthew:
Yeah.
Molly:
Ow, okay.
Matthew:
Just a little bit, with some whipped cream, and I was like, oh, this is a really good breakfast. And then later that day, I cut myself a half slice of pie and ate it with some cheddar cheese on top. I was like, oh, this is really great. I see why people do this.
Molly:
What form was the cheese in? Did you grate it? Did you slice it thinly? Did you alternate bites? How did this work?
Matthew:
Yeah. I took a little square, like a cracker slice of cheese, and I put it on top of the pie and just put that in a 350 oven for six minutes until the cheese just softened.
Molly:
Oh.
Matthew:
Yeah, and then I ate it. Then I had a little more pie this morning for breakfast. I think I'm sold on pie now.
Molly:
Wow!
Matthew:
I was all set. On Sunday I was like, okay, I'm going to come onto this pie episode and be like, "Eh, pie", but I'm coming around, I think I might want to do it again.
Molly:
It does occur to me that the nice thing about a good pie is that... Cake feels like too much for me at breakfast. I say that as someone who really loves a layer cake with frosting, but cake feels too desserty for breakfast, whereas pie, I can totally see how it is more, at least a fruit pie, it's quite versatile that way.
Matthew:
It is versatile, yes. That's a good way to describe it.
Molly:
Okay. Well, that's very thought-provoking, Matthew.
Matthew:
Thank you. Oh, and the pie that that Watson and I made was from The Grand Central Baking Book, which is a terrific cook book.
Molly:
It is. Lots of good stuff in there. Grand Central has a particularly good Irish soda bread recipe.
Matthew:
Oh, nice.
Molly:
So everybody should keep that in mind this spring.
Matthew:
Oh yeah.
Molly:
What's the holiday you make Irish soda bread for? St. Patrick's Day? Maybe?
Matthew:
I don't think I realized it was a seasonal confection until you mentioned it just now. Oh, the apples we used were from Collins Family Orchards here at Washington state. We've been doing their CSA, which I think just finished and wow, do we get a lot of apples every week, until recently.
Molly:
I was too late to sign up for that CSA and I'm really bummed. My household needs a lot of apples every week. I think we easily go through... If we have enough apples in the house, we will eat, I would say eight to 12 apples a week.
Matthew:
Wow! When you were a kid, I assume you heard the saying, an apple a day keeps the doctor away. Did you, like me, ever interpret that using child logic as like, if you eat an apple a day, you will drive away doctors? They'll try and come near you and they'll be like vampires to garlic?
Molly:
No, I didn't interpret it that way.
Matthew:
I did.
Molly:
Wow! Really?
Matthew:
Yeah. I think by the time I was 17 or 18, I probably figured it out.
Molly:
I've always wondered the association of apples and teachers. You know?
Matthew:
Oh, I don't know how that started. I assume probably all these things are a producer's organization, like came up with a PR campaign.
Molly:
It seems that way.
Matthew:
Yeah.
Molly:
Okay. I think probably the first apple pie I made was it tart, honestly.
Matthew:
Okay. Like a Tarte Tatin or like a...?
Molly:
No, I think probably-
Matthew:
In a tart pan or a coffin?
Molly:
-like a- In a coffin, was probably like a French style apple tart, because when I was living in my first apartment in my mid 20s, early mid 20s, I did a lot of baking from Dorie Greenspan's books at that time, in particular Paris Sweets, which is a great cookbook, and I think is one of the underappreciated, Dorie Greenspan books.
Matthew:
Sure, I know that book.
Molly:
Anyway, I remember making a [inaudible 00:29:30], a little thin apple tart. I love that kind of thing.
Matthew:
Oh, yeah.
Molly:
Well, it's as much about the flavor of the butter crust as it is about these thin slices of apple.
Matthew:
Oh yeah. I think a pie or a tart is like a pizza in that if the crust is good, it's going to be good, and if the crust is bad, it's going to be bad.
Molly:
Absolutely. Until quite recently, I had never made a proper double crust apple pie. For the record, I do think that an apple pie has to be double crust. That's what we think of when we think of an apple pie, except for like a sour cream apple pie, which often has a streusel top, right?
Matthew:
Yeah. I think that's what we call a Dutch apple pie in the US.
Molly:
Okay.
Matthew:
I agree. I think of an apple pie as being double crusted. There's no reason you can't make a lattice top apple pie, but I think of that as a cherry pie thing.
Molly:
I think of that as also like other fruits, like a berry pie or a peach pie, I think can be a lattice pot.
Matthew:
A Linzer torte.
Molly:
A Linzer torte. I can imagine doing a lattice on an apple pie, but I think part of what looks really good in a lattice pie is the contrast between the color of the lattice and the fruit beneath it.
Matthew:
Yes, that's a good point.
Molly:
Like burbling blackberry juices kind of vibe.
Matthew:
Yap, you're absolutely right.
Molly:
Okay. I think that one of the first apple pies I made was because my kid asked for it. I don't think she would take a firm stand in cake versus pie. She loves them both.
Matthew:
She's like Switzerland.
Molly:
She is like Switzerland. Anyway, a few Thanksgivings ago... Yeah, I want to say she was quite young. She wanted an apple pie at Thanksgiving. I don't know where she gets these ideas. We talked about making one together, which of course winds up being me making it, but then she likes to refer to it as her apple pie, which is fine with me. But then a couple Thanksgivings after that, she would say, "And can we make my apple pie?" What she didn't know is that her apple pie is actually Samin Nosrat's apple pie. That's the recipe that I have used and that I really like. It's the classic apple pie from Salt, Fat, Acid Heat.
Matthew:
Oh, this is like the time you quoted that poem at me and told me you wrote it, but it turned out to be Yeats.
Molly:
Yeah. Anyway, well, for one thing, for a very long time, I've had one particular, all-butter pie crust that I have made. It's definitely more on the tender end of the spectrum than the flaky end. You know what I mean?
Matthew:
Yeah. I do know what you mean.
Molly:
So Samin has an all-butter pie crust in Salt, Fat, Acid, Heat that you make in the stand mixer.
Matthew:
Oh, I like that.
Molly:
Yeah. It's so easy, and it also makes for a really flaky crust. So yeah, I've used that with the recipe on the following page, which is her apple pie.
Matthew:
Turn the page, everyone.
Molly:
It uses a moderate amount of cinnamon, a small amount of all-spice, dark brown sugar mixed in with the apples and a tiny splash of apple cider vinegar in it with the apples.
Matthew:
I like that idea.
Molly:
It makes a really lovely apple pie that, gosh, has a really good caramelized flavor to the apples. Maybe helped along by that brown sugar.
Matthew:
Yes, the pie that we made also had brown sugar in the filling. I liked that a lot.
Molly:
Yeah. Anyway, yeah, I really liked that pie. Interestingly enough, this past Thanksgiving, June asked for a pumpkin pie and I was like, "You don't want to make your apple pie?" And she was like, "Nope", she wanted a pumpkin pie, which I'm just not a huge pumpkin pie person.
Matthew:
Yeah, I'm not either. Wife of The Show, Lori, loves pumpkin pie and unfortunately, no one else in the family does.
Molly:
June loves it. I like it, okay. What would I wound up doing, I was like, I don't want to make this. I don't want to make something that I don't really love eating.
Matthew:
Sure.
Molly:
So we ordered one from Coyle's Bakeshop-
Matthew:
Smart.
Molly:
-here in North Seattle, and that was a great pumpkin pie. So everyone, if you like pumpkin pie, put it on your calendar, order a pumpkin pie from Coyle's-
Matthew:
Coyle it up.
Molly:
-if you're local. Matthew, wait a minute. Do you think it was the apples for apple pie should be sliced or chopped or sort of chunked? I think they're almost always sliced, but that's interesting to me, because crisps and cobblers are often apple chunks.
Matthew:
Yeah. Although, Lori has been making apple crisp lately also, because as I mentioned, we've been getting a lot of apples every week. It's-
Molly:
Relentless?
Matthew:
-a lot of apples. It's relentless, it's a sea of apples. She's been making her family apple crisp recipe, which probably came from an old, Better Homes and Gardens cookbook or something. It's made with sliced apples and it's super good and super easy. Also a great breakfast. The question was, what format do I want the apples to be for an apple pie? I don't know that I've really compared. When I think about it, I think sliced, and I don't really see a reason to do something other than slice, although they do slide against each other and spill out a little bit, but that's not a bad thing. I'm sure chunks would do that too.
Molly:
What spices do you want in your apple pie?
Matthew:
We did just cinnamon. I like the idea of cinnamon and all-spice. I don't imagine I need clove in there. I think really cinnamon is the key for me. Cinnamon is the key to my pilgrim soul. Sorry. If I went out to the woods, the coffin of biomes with some sort of motorcycle person, and they brought out a jar, like a half cup spice jar of cinnamon and just waved that under my nose, I would be good to go.
Molly:
Wow. I know what you and Lori are doing later.
Matthew:
That's right. If they could modify the motorcycle to produce like a cinnamon-scented exhaust, that would be amazing.
Molly:
That would be truly amazing. Matthew, have you ever had mock apple pie? I feel like this is one of the... It's like a Depression era recipe, right?
Matthew:
Yeah.
Molly:
I've always heard of it and I've never actually tried it. I don't know if I know anyone who's tried it. Have you tried it?
Matthew:
I have made it. I think I've eaten it twice, and one time I made it. It's an interesting novelty.
Molly:
Does it taste like apple pie like they say it does?
Matthew:
It kind of does. Yeah, the texture is mooshy, but it does taste like it. The point is like, the flavor of apple pie is really about brown sugar and cinnamon and butter more than the actual apple flavor. You're not going to fool somebody, unless they're really not paying attention.
Molly:
Okay. Or unless you haven't had an apple for a really long time, because the country's going through a national depression.
Matthew:
Yeah. That's the opposite of what's been happening in our house, just apple wise.
Molly:
So you've been under apple inflation, [crosstalk 00:36:45]?
Matthew:
We've been under apple inflation, exactly. It's veering toward hyperinflation. I'm afraid to open the fridge drawer, because we just made a whole apple pie, but I think there are so many more apples in there.
Molly:
Oh my God. I'm sorry and so jealous, really.
Matthew:
Yeah. No, it's not actually a problem. I'm just doing a bet. I realized that I don't like how this sounds.
Molly:
Okay. Yeah. Bragging about how wealthy you are in apples?
Matthew:
In apples. Yes. Oh, with a mock apple pie. Yeah. Or if someone had never had an apple, you could convince them this was it.
Molly:
Okay.
Matthew:
If you had a kid and you just wanted to play a mean prank on them, this would be perfect.
Molly:
Okay. So you got to raise the kid up to a certain age-
Matthew:
When they're ready to eat pie.
Molly:
-when they're ready to eat pie, but never let them have an apple or apple sauce.
Matthew:
Right.
Molly:
This is like the baby's movement.
Matthew:
The what? I think this is something I haven't heard of.
Molly:
Like people who raise their child without ever-
Matthew:
Oh wait, I see where this is going.
Molly:
-discussing gender.
Matthew:
Okay. I like that idea.
Molly:
And then you just see what happens. This is what we're going to do with mock apple pie. We're going to raise the kid without any apples, and see-
Matthew:
Okay. I don't know that these are necessarily equivalent things.
Molly:
I don't think they are at all, but... Okay.
Matthew:
But I see where you're going with this. I think we should just go ahead and give kids apples.
Molly:
Okay, fine.
Matthew:
And Ritz Crackers.
Molly:
Matthew, how would you rank apple pie compared to other apple desserts, like apple crisp, turnovers, cobbler?
Matthew:
Okay. So apple brown betty. I also put on the list, even though I've never had it.
Molly:
I love that you thought of brown betty.
Matthew:
Like I said, I've had a pie journey in the last couple of days, because when I first had it, I was like, okay, the thing I want from this as a higher crust to filling ratio, because the crust is so good, and then inside, there's just like so many feet deep of apples. But then, I kept eating it and enjoying it. I do think I would like maybe a smaller apple pie. I'm not sure if that would improve the ratio.
Molly:
Is that like a Danish turnover, hands pie?
Matthew:
Yeah, I think I could go for a Danish, do you have one?
Molly:
Hand pie?
Matthew:
I think maybe like a hand pie would be ideal for me.
Molly:
I know that I've mentioned this cookbook many times on the show, but Repertoire by Jessica Battilana. She has a recipe in there for hand pies. I can't remember what fruit she uses, but all this to say she lives in Maine, but she was in Washington state teaching a cooking class a couple of years ago. I went out to dinner with her afterward and she gave me some of the things she had made in the cooking class.
Matthew:
Oh, nice. Good deal.
Molly:
One of the things she had made was she took her fruit turnover recipe and used apples in it, and it was, I think the best hand pie I have experienced, ever.
Matthew:
That sounds amazing.
Molly:
Yeah. Anyway, check that out. I think you could easily use her recipe to make apple.
Matthew:
Yeah, because I think I want crust, crust, crust and a little fruit to go with that crust.
Molly:
Yeah.
Matthew:
How about toppings? Oh wait, first of all, how would you rank... I didn't even rank, I just said I wanted more crust.
Molly:
I agree with you there, except that I love Tarte Tatin, which I think of as being 75 to 80% apple, and then just-
Matthew:
Really? Okay.
Molly:
-a little bit of crust. Because Tarte Tatin, I think of as having big... When I've made it I've quartered the apple. So you get this big wedge of apple on this paving of big apple chunks on top.
Matthew:
Oh, that's interesting.
Molly:
But those apples are cooked in caramel for a long time, and so they are almost like... I don't know, it's so cool what happens to them? They're almost like translucent and I like that.
Matthew:
Yeah. No, I know what you mean. I was just suddenly struck silent because I was thinking, when I'm going to just eat an apple that's cut into slices, I want big chunky slices. I don't like eating a bunch of thin apple slices, but when it comes to a pie, I don't like the idea of like a big chunk in my tart. I'd rather have thin slice, so they melt together-
Molly:
Yes, I get that.
Matthew:
-and get really well cooked.
Molly:
I get that.
Matthew:
I guess I'm saying I don't want your homemade Tarte Tatin.
Molly:
I think that my number one apple dessert is a Tarte Tatin.
Matthew:
Yeah. I can totally understand.
Molly:
It's truly one of those things that is like, you know how they're just some foods, you put them in your mouth and you are like, this is just this incredible combination of flavors that can only be achieved through real care and patients.
Matthew:
Yes, I know what you mean.
Molly:
Anyway. Yeah, so I think Tarte Tatin is my number one. But I also, yeah, I like apple pie. Not enough to make it, ever. My mom makes a really nice apple crisp, but yeah, yeah, I don't know.
Matthew:
Okay. Well let's talk topics, because as I mentioned, I really enjoyed cheddar cheese on my apple pie. I think I would put whipped cream at number one. Ice cream, I don't need it. I'd rather than have my ice cream separately. How about you?
Molly:
I kind of don't want anything with my apple pie.
Matthew:
Oh, a purist.
Molly:
I don't want anything with my apple pie. That said, when I make-
Matthew:
That is your pilgrim soul talking.
Molly:
Yeah, I don't want anything interfering with the top crust. I don't want anything touching the top crust.
Matthew:
Okay. Do you egg wash the top crust, and if so, do you then sprinkle it with sugar or sanding sugar or, I don't know what else could you put on there, like [crosstalk 00:42:56]?
Molly:
This Samin Nosrat recipe, I believe has you brush it with cream and then you use turbinado sugar. And that's really nice.
Matthew:
Yeah. I have this longstanding thing where I know that there's turbinado sugar and demerara sugar, and they're both fancy, and one of them is finely ground like brown sugar, and one of them is crystalline, and I will never ever remember which one is which.
Molly:
Demerara is the one that's a bit more... It's finer, like red sugar. Turbinado is more like sugar in the raw. It's these kind of bigger sand colored crystals.
Matthew:
Okay. Well, I that's the one I don't like.
Molly:
Oh, okay.
Matthew:
I love how it looks, but I don't like the texture.
Molly:
Hmm. All right.
Matthew:
We just did an egg wash and then sprinkled with a little bit of granulated sugar and that was great.
Molly:
It looked gorgeous. You sent a picture of it.
Matthew:
I did send a picture.
Molly:
Matthew, I think we need to close out today's episode with our favorite segment.
Matthew:
Cute animals you need to know. There's a Fox named Finnegan the fox.
Molly:
Okay, I'm looking this up.
Matthew:
This Fox is on YouTube, and the thing about this fox and maybe other foxes, I don't know, is that when you rub its belly, it makes a sound, more like a cat than a dog. Like, so you should definitely watch this fox getting a belly rub.
Molly:
Oh my God, he wags his tail. Oh.
Speaker 3:
I missed you. [crosstalk 00:44:27].
Molly:
Oh, he rolled over so she can rub his belly
Matthew:
Yes.
Speaker 3:
Talk to the fans.
Molly:
Can you hear him?
Matthew:
Oh yes I can. I want to clarify, this is a wildlife rescue. This is not somebody who has a fox as a pet, that would be bad.
Molly:
Oh my God. He really has a lot of dog-like traits.
Matthew:
Yes, foxes are canines.
Molly:
I think for the most part, we don't want to encourage anyone to keep a fox as a pet, but wow, this is cute. I needed this.
Matthew:
Yeah. We don't want to encourage anyone to keep a fox as a pet, but have you tried having a pet fox? It's great.
Molly:
Oh my God. He's so cute, I'm still watching him.
Matthew:
I know right?
Molly:
He runs all around. He really loves this person.
Matthew:
Yes.
Molly:
Oh, what a [crosstalk 00:45:21].
Matthew:
I take this job very seriously, and so yesterday I spent a bunch of time looking for cute animal videos for our new favorite segment. I was all set to share one about Tasmanian devils, which are very cute, and then the video I was watching suddenly it became like a montage of Tasmanian devils, gnawing hunks off a kangaroo carcass. I was like, this is less cute.
Molly:
Oh my God, that's adorable. What about-
Matthew:
And suddenly, I had this whole cavalcade of emotions, because suddenly I felt really judgmental. Like how can you cute little guys do this? Do this to a kangaroo park? I was like, wait a minute.
Molly:
It's like when all of a sudden polar bears start eating seals or whatever.
Matthew:
Right. Polar bears are so adore- Baby polar bears may be the cutest animal, and of course, polar bears are vicious killers and we really should not put them on trial for this. Although, a polar bear on trial would be so funny.
Molly:
Oh, and so cute.
Matthew:
And so cute. Like say sitting there in the witness stand?
Molly:
Oh my God, I love Finne- Matthew, I've been watching Finnegan this whole time, I'm hardly even listening to you.
Matthew:
Good fox, right?
Molly:
Oh my God. He is a great fox. He's got a fox friend-
Matthew:
Oh, that's good.
Molly:
-and they play together like dogs do, because they're like dogs.
Matthew:
Yesterday I was at the park-
Molly:
Oh my God, what a booper. Oh, he's so cut, Matthew.
Matthew:
What a booper. Yesterday I was at the park and I saw two dogs meet and they just like rubbed noses and it was delightful.
Molly:
Oh my God. I love him. Okay. All right. Wow. This was a particularly good week for this segment.
Matthew:
Thank you. Yeah. I know the basic gist of the segment is I find a cute animal video and share it, but if you ever want to find a cute animal video and share it with me, I'd be up for that.
Molly:
I have one that I've got in mind and I'll send it to you. Maybe you can use it for a future one. I don't want to say it on the air, because then we'd be spoiling it. You know?
Matthew:
Right. Do you have any animal crossing updates or should we save that for next week?
Molly:
No animal crossing updates for the moment.
Matthew:
Okay. I keep thinking that I would enjoy playing video games, which I used to do and haven't done in years, but then also seems like it would take a lot of time.
Molly:
Yeah. I think it does.
Matthew:
Has anyone observed that it would be cool if there were more hours in a day, so you could do more things?
Molly:
I think that somebody has-
Matthew:
Before you inevitably get put in your coffin of pastry?
Molly:
Yeah. Matthew, I'm sorry. I'm so distracted by looking at videos of cute animals.
Matthew:
All right. You can find us online, spilledmilkpodcast.com. Our unofficial Reddit discussion group is reddit.com/r/everythingspilledmilk. Our producer is Abby Cerquitella. Please rate and review the show, and tell a friend that there's a show where two dumbed ass talk about a cute animal video, and how everyone's going to die someday, and pie. Until next time, thank you for listening to Spilled Milk.
Molly:
The show that you can carry around in your ears like a pilgrim soul.
Matthew:
I'm Matthew Amster-Burton.
Molly:
I'm Molly Wizenberg.
Matthew:
Are you still there?
Molly:
I was just thinking.
Matthew:
Yes?
Molly:
Ah, yeah. I was just thinking.
Matthew:
Oh, okay, great.
Molly:
Yeah.