Embedded Files
Molly:
I'm Molly.
Matthew:
And I'm Matthew.
Molly:
This is Spilled Milk, the show where we cook something delicious, eat it all, and you can't have any.
Matthew:
Today we're talking about persimmons.
Molly:
We are. I am sitting in my closet, in fact, with a cutting board, a very ripe Hachiya persimmon, a spoon, and a knife.
Matthew:
Wow. That's a really evocative image. If we thought of your closet as a cave, it's like a prehistoric image. I mean, except for the cutting board.
Molly:
Yeah. Yeah. It's just me in my fur mini dress.
Matthew:
Yep. That's what you wore in Clan of the Cave Bear, right?
Molly:
Yep. Yep. And yeah, I'm really looking forward to eating this. I have been carefully ripening this persimmon for like five days now. So here we are, Matthew. Let's do this.
Matthew:
Have you been hand-ripening it? I don't know if that's a phrase that's ever been used, but it sounds like something an intolerable natural foods website would use.
Molly:
Well, we're going to actually talk a little bit about hand-drying persimmons.
Matthew:
Oh yes. No, no, I'm on board with that.
Molly:
A bit like hand-ripening.
Matthew:
I just want something continuous described as hand-ripened.
Molly:
Okay. Wait, Matthew, before we get started, well, number one, happy new year to everybody.
Matthew:
Yeah. I mean, if you're listening to this on the day it comes out, it's New Year's Eve.
Molly:
Well, and if you're listening to it after it's come out, happy new year.
Matthew:
Yes. But if you're listening to it on the day it comes out, we're going to sing Auld Lang Syne in its entirety, starting right now. (singing) All right, scratch it.
Molly:
Okay.
Matthew:
Who are you going to kiss on New Year's Eve?
Molly:
I think I might kiss my spouse. Isn't that hot?
Matthew:
Well, maybe the expected choice, it can be just as fiery. It's a great way to start the year off right.
Molly:
Matthew, you have been kind enough to allow me to promote my upcoming workshop on our show.
Matthew:
Yes. I mean, you make it sound like I'm the boss of the show, which is not the case, but-
Molly:
No, no. I'm the boss of the show.
Matthew:
Yes.
Molly:
Anyway, no. I-
Matthew:
You know how we were going to do a sit-com based on Spilled Milk and nobody was interested in that idea? We should have called it Who's The Boss.
Molly:
Oh my God. Who thought of that?
Matthew:
And the gist is like-
Molly:
That's such a good idea.
Matthew:
... I'm a hunky handy man and I move into your house.
Molly:
Yes. Oh my God. This is going to be a big hit.
Matthew:
Okay. Or if the show doesn't work out, could I just move into your house? I need a place to stay.
Molly:
You'll have to sleep in June's old twin bed, which we now keep downstairs.
Matthew:
All right. That sounds funny.
Molly:
Okay, great. On January 24th, I'm going to be teaching a online writing workshop. It's two hours. It is going to be on my particular approach to transforming memories into scenes and stories. You can join us by going to mollywizenberg.com/upcoming. The workshop's called From Memory To Story. It's going to be super fun and we're going to do some writing. We're going to be some talking. You know I always be talking.
Matthew:
okay. So yeah. Sign up for that, mollywizenberg/upcoming. It's very reasonably priced.
Molly:
Wow.
Matthew:
Maybe next time I should be the one who sells the workshop. I'm also doing a workshop. It's about writing Who's The Boss scripts.
Molly:
I'm usually a little bit more coherent than that, but you're welcome.
Matthew:
No, it's going to be terrific. I wish I could join.
Molly:
You can, [crosstalk 00:03:43].
Matthew:
Okay, great. Should we talk about persimmons?
Molly:
Let's talk about persimmons. Let's start on memory lane. I don't really have a persimmon memory lane.
Matthew:
I don't really have a persimmon memory lane either. I feel like I knew that persimmons existed long before I ever tasted one, probably because I was reading food writing.
Molly:
Yes. Persimmon pudding seems to be a storied thing. I feel like it shows up in all sorts of Christmas and winter tales,
Matthew:
Like from England, specifically, or is it like an American thing too? I mean, anything with pudding in it sounds very British to me.
Molly:
Yes. Well, interestingly enough, I, in my research didn't really find anything about the UK and persimmons, but-
Matthew:
Okay, because I imagine there being like an Elizabeth David book called A Persimmon Pudding and a Mug of Glogg or something.
Molly:
I hope there is. Anyway, yes, I'm sure... I mean, I'm not sure, but I'm guessing that they make persimmon pudding in the UK. But I think it's maybe more of an American thing. Yeah, because there are some persimmon types that are native to the US and I don't believe there are any that are native to Northern Europe.
Matthew:
No, I think it's just the word pudding threw me off.
Molly:
Yeah, that's true. Let's start referring to desserts as puddings now. Let's become real anglophiles.
Matthew:
Okay. I've got a fork in my non-dominant hand right now.
Molly:
Perfect. You're well on your way. Okay. That said, I remember always feeling like I wasn't going to like persimmons. I was not interested in trying them. This is part of my memory lane, in case you hadn't noticed. I was never very interested in trying persimmons, and as an adult, I've come to like them. But I don't get excited about them. What about you?
Matthew:
I would tend to agree, although I really enjoyed especially the soft and juicy persimmon that I ate a couple of days ago in preparation for this episode. I think I'm starting to lean into the persimmon phase of my adulthood.
Molly:
That sounds wonderful.
Matthew:
Doesn't it?
Molly:
I have saved my soft and juicy persimmon to eat with you this morning, as you know. So maybe I'll join you in that new phase. We'll find out here in a few minutes.
Matthew:
Yeah. I think I'm going to write a memoir called The Persimmon Period or The Persimmon Phase. I don't really know how to write a memoir, so I'm going to go to a workshop.
Molly:
Perfect. I know just the one for you. Okay. Matthew, can I share with you some of my research?
Matthew:
Yes, please, because I know-
Molly:
Okay. So-
Matthew:
I was a little nervous about this episode because I know much less about persimmons than I feel like I should as a food person.
Molly:
Well, I actually could not believe how interesting persimmons were. We'll see if that transfers to our show here today, this feeling that I have that persimmons are interesting. I don't know if I can do it justice, but here we go. Okay. There are many different species of persimmon. I did not expect this.
Matthew:
Okay. Different species. Wow. Okay.
Molly:
Yes. The most widely cultivated by far is Diospyros kaki.
Matthew:
Oh, from the Japanese word for persimmon, I assume.
Molly:
Yes. Actually, around the world, kaki... Is that how you say it?
Matthew:
Yeah.
Molly:
K-A-K-I. It is a much more widely used word than persimmon. In French, for instance, persimmon is kaki.
Matthew:
Oh, I didn't know that.
Molly:
Yeah.
Matthew:
Oh, that's interesting.
Molly:
Anyway, Diospyros kaki is the most widely cultivated species. It's also sometimes called the Japanese persimmon, the Asian persimmon. But interestingly enough, the word persimmon itself, the word that we use in English derives, from the Algonquian language, Powhatan. Am I saying that right?
Matthew:
I think so.
Molly:
Which is a language from the Eastern US. In this language, the word persimmon is related to the word for a dry fruit.
Matthew:
Do you think that means that the fruit in its fresh-picked state is not that juicy or that it's a fruit that's good for drying?
Molly:
I have no idea, but I think it could be any of those.
Matthew:
Could be either of those. Yeah.
Molly:
Yeah. Persimmons are berries. Think of them like a tomato. They look like a tomato, right?
Matthew:
Yes.
Molly:
They're berries, botanically speaking, the fruit of a persimmon tree. This fruit matures late in the fall. It can stay on the tree for a pretty long time, like until winter.
Matthew:
Oh, okay.
Molly:
Yeah. Ripe fruits range in color really widely, depending on the species. Sometimes they're a light yellow orange when they're ripe. Sometimes they're almost black. It's pretty [crosstalk 00:08:19].
Matthew:
Whoa. I think the range of persimmons that shows up in American grocery stores is pretty small, right?
Molly:
It is. It is. We really only get two different types of Diospyros kaki, and we'll get there in just a sec. But they also vary widely in size too. Like some of them are only half an inch, seriously, like a little berry.
Matthew:
Wow. Like a kumquat persimmon.
Molly:
Yes. And some of them get up to like three and a half inches in diameter.
Matthew:
Some of them get up to no good.
Molly:
Yes. Yes. Those are the really fun, crazy, wild persimmons you want to hang out with on the weekend.
Matthew:
Those are the persimmons I want to spend my New Year's Eve with.
Molly:
Yes.
Matthew:
Yeah. Your fun, fun weekends with Molly.
Molly:
Yeah. Anyway, sometimes they're spherical. Sometimes they're acorn or heart-shaped, and some of them are more like pumpkin or tomato shaped. I think this is interesting. Usually when we pick a fruit, whether it's a tomato or an apple or whatever, the calyx, the leaves that are right where the stem meets the fruit, it doesn't necessarily stay on the fruit after it's picked, right?
Matthew:
Right.
Molly:
Whereas with persimmons, the calyx stays on the fruit after harvesting. I think it's just part of how it's built, and the calyx then becomes very easy to remove as the fruit gets riper and riper.
Matthew:
Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. It was easy to remove.
Molly:
Commercially and in general, persimmons can be divided into two categories, astringent and non astringent.
Matthew:
Oh, just like people.
Molly:
Exactly.
Matthew:
Which of us would you say is the astringent host and which is the non astringent host.
Molly:
I feel like we go back and forth.
Matthew:
Yeah. I want to be the astringent host.
Molly:
I feel like sometimes I'm the astringent host, but-
Matthew:
I think the astringent host would be the one who has a dry English sense of humor, right?
Molly:
Yes.
Matthew:
I want that to be me. It's not, but-
Molly:
It's not me either.
Matthew:
Okay.
Molly:
Oh good. It's neither of us.
Matthew:
All right. We're just a couple of non-astringent persimmons doing our thing.
Molly:
Back to this most common species, Diospyros kaki, is native to China, Japan, and Korea. There are many cultivars within this species, among them being the two ones that you and I know, Hachiya and Fuyu. Hachiya is the roughly acorn or heart-shaped one. And then Fuyus are the more squat like pumpkin or tomato-shaped one. These are the two types you usually see on the US market. One of these is astringent and one is non-astringent. Matthew, do you know which one is which?
Matthew:
I do. I thought the game was going to be harder than this. The Hachiya is the astringent type persimmon.
Molly:
Yes. What this means is that this particular type has a really high tannin content. So when it's unripe, the fruit is wildly astringent, bitter, chokey, and really make your mouth feel dry. But as the fruit ripens, well, you want it to get all the way to water balloon texture. But as the fruit ripens, the tannin content drops. And so, you do not want to eat these puppies when they are not yet fully ripe. Wait until they become like water balloons and the flesh will be like jelly-like surrounded by a thin skin.
Matthew:
[crosstalk 00:11:42] research, and I'm just remembering this. Did you run across the quote from Captain John Smith about astringent persimmons? I think I first encountered this in Harold McGee.
Molly:
I think that it's about the Diospyros virginiana, the American persimmon, which we'll get to in a minute.
Matthew:
Oh okay. Oh, great, great, great.
Molly:
But yes, I did encounter it where he talked about how unpleasant it is to eat when unripe.
Matthew:
Yeah. That it will draw the mouth awry with much torment.
Molly:
Yes, yes. Anyway. Okay. Fuyu, on the other hand, which are the squaty pumpkin-shaped ones.
Matthew:
Squatty pumpkin.
Molly:
Are pumpkin are a non astringent cultivar. So it doesn't mean that they don't have any tannins at all, but they're much less astringent before ripening. And then as they begin to ripen, they lose their tannin qualities much more quickly. So you can eat these either firm, at which point they have a delightful, like almost apple-like kind of crunch, or like a firm apricot almost.
Matthew:
Yeah. Yeah.
Molly:
But not fibrous.
Matthew:
I agree, firm apricot.
Molly:
Yeah. Or if you wait until they are more soft and ripe, they're also delicious. But it's a little bit more of a mushy texture, like a soft apricot but not fibrous.
Matthew:
Yeah. Mine, I would say, was medium ripe and was very tasty.
Molly:
Yeah. Fuyus are seedless, but they do have these... What do you call those little... If you cut across it, across its equator, it's got this beautiful design on the inside. Did you notice that?
Matthew:
I mean, what you're seeing is the walls of the ovaries of the plant.
Molly:
Oh, is that it?
Matthew:
That is fused into a fruit, I think.
Molly:
Okay. Well, anyway, it's beautiful. I don't usually take a fruit like an apple and cut across its equator.
Matthew:
No, I don't usually do that either, unless I'm playing Fruit Ninja.
Molly:
But it was really beautiful to do that with my persimmon, my Fuyu, to cut it into thin slices that way. Really-
Matthew:
Oh, that does sound nice. Now I just shaved chunks off of mine and ate them.
Molly:
Okay. So yeah. Remember, both of these are Diospyros kaki, okay?
Matthew:
Yes.
Molly:
But they're-
Matthew:
I was hoping one of us would be astringent stringent and one would be non astringent, but it turns out you're a thin slicer and I'm a chunk shaver.
Molly:
I think that is just as good really.
Matthew:
Yeah, as long as we can divide ourselves into two categories that we can go to war over
Molly:
Perfect. I don't want to be... Listeners love it when we have our fiery rants-
Matthew:
Conflicts, yeah.
Molly:
... and tirades and conflict. So this is what it's going to be, thin slicers or chunkers.
Matthew:
That's right. Have you ever listened to a podcast where the hosts really do get into it and get into big fights with each other? I feel like there's one podcast that I listen to where that has to happen sometimes. It's kind of fun.
Molly:
No, I never hear that.
Matthew:
I can't take very much of it, but...
Molly:
Well, Matthew, can we talk briefly about some other species because-
Matthew:
Yes, I'd love to.
Molly:
Because it's wild to me how different different species of this same-
Matthew:
Fruit.
Molly:
... fruit are, or the same tree.
Matthew:
Well, tell me about them.
Molly:
There's one that is native to the Eastern US. It's Diospyros virginiana or the American persimmon. I've never seen these.
Matthew:
Do you know how the Japanese persimmon ended up becoming the standard persimmon sold in the US when there are native American persimmons?
Molly:
I don't-
Matthew:
Persimmons native to America.
Molly:
I don't know. In truth, the American persimmon has, of course, been on US soil far longer than any of these Japanese varieties, right?
Matthew:
Right. I mean, I assume it must have something to do with, like, "These are the ones that were easy to domesticate and put into mass production."
Molly:
Well, and also I do know that it was quite a while ago that cultivars of Diospyros kaki were brought to California and they were grown there. Of course, since there's so much agriculture in California, I can see how this could have quickly become dominant.
Matthew:
Sure. Of course, there's a long, long history of Japanese and Japanese American farmers in California who would have been growing persimmons.
Molly:
Yeah. So anyway, the American persimmon, just like these other ones we've been talking about, can be eaten fresh or in baked goods. Persimmon trees are also often used for their wood, which is really hard. The timber of the American persimmon is sometimes used to make musical instruments.
Matthew:
Oh. So you could get a persimmon... What's a musical instrument?
Molly:
Flute.
Matthew:
A persimmon flute.
Molly:
Flute, let's say.
Matthew:
Yeah.
Molly:
Let's say flute. Then there's the Diospyros nigra, which is the black persimmon, and it's native to Mexico. The fruit has green skin and a white flash that, as it becomes ripe, turns dark brown or black.
Matthew:
Ooh.
Molly:
Then we've got Diospyros discolor, or I don't know how I'd pronounce that.
Matthew:
I think the discolor.
Molly:
Okay. This is sometimes called the mabolo, the Korean mango, or shizi in China. It's bright red when it's ripe. Then we've got one that's native to West Bengal. It's the Diospyros peregrina or the Indian persimmon. The fruit of this one is also green, but it's not known so much for cooking or eating. It's best known for its use in Ayurvedic medicine. Then here's another American persimmon. This is the Diospyros texana.
Matthew:
Oh, that's the one that has a little hat. I mean, a big hat.
Molly:
Yes. You find this one at rodeos sometimes. This is the Texas persimmon. It's native to Central and West Texas, and Southwest Oklahoma, and also parts of Northeast Mexico. I've never seen this or heard of it until now.
Matthew:
I've never seen and possibly never heard of a persimmon other than Diospyros kaki.
Molly:
Yeah. Anyway, this is so interesting to me that I grew up in a part of the country that has a native persimmon and I never heard of it. Anyway, this one is black on the outside and ripens a little earlier. Ripens in August. So anyway-
Matthew:
That's my birthday. I ripened in August.
Molly:
You did. Congratulations.
Matthew:
Thanks.
Molly:
So-
Matthew:
I mean, not this year, like many years ago was when I ripened and fell from the tree.
Molly:
Did you still have your calyx attached?
Matthew:
Yeah, I did. They had to clip it.
Molly:
Yeah. Mine too.
Matthew:
Cool. Cool coincidence.
Molly:
So anyway, Matthew, do you typically buy these things and when?
Matthew:
No. And in fact, I think probably you can count the number of times I've eaten persimmon on one hand.
Molly:
Yeah. Me too. Me too.
Matthew:
And so, I was going to go to the co-op, central co-op to get persimmons, but then Lori mentioned that, let's call her [inaudible 00:18:34] W, sister-in-law of the show, Wendy. [inaudible 00:18:37] W is a pretty good name, right.
Molly:
[inaudible 00:18:39] W?
Matthew:
Does that sound like a robot in a dystopian sci-fi movie?
Molly:
I feel like this sounds like something out of Battlestar Galactica.
Matthew:
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. There we go. So [inaudible 00:18:53] W, a benevolent robot, and also sister-in-law of this show, Wendy, was going to the co-op anyway, and is a big persimmon eater and said, "Oh yeah, I can pick you up some persimmons. How many of each kind do you want?" I said, "How about one of each?" She got me one Hachiya and one Fuyu persimmon. The Hachiya was already ripe and ready to go.
Molly:
While you've been talking, I have been over here pulling off my calyx and cutting my Hachiya persimmon in half from stem to [inaudible 00:19:24].
Matthew:
Yeah.
Molly:
Hold on. I've got to put my mic down to do this. I don't have a mic stand. Hold on. Okay. Can you still hear me?
Matthew:
Yeah.
Molly:
Okay. I'm over here now. I'm-
Matthew:
Where is over here? We can't see you.
Molly:
Hold on. I just scooped this out. I was a little bit worried when I cut into it that maybe I hadn't gotten it as ripe as I thought, because I just thought the inside would ooze out the second I cut into it. It didn't, but it's very easy to scoop out and it is delicious.
Matthew:
Oh yeah.
Molly:
It's so mild. It's really a hard flavor to describe it.
Matthew:
Yeah. I mean, they're super popular in Japan and you can get... I think if you want to really zero in on what is the flavor of a persimmon, I would recommend picking up a pack of persimmon Hi-chew.
Molly:
Really?
Matthew:
Because it divorces the persimmon flavor from the texture, because they're very texture-forward kind of fruit.
Molly:
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Hold on. I promise I'll pick up my mic again in a second. I'm just really enjoying eating this.
Matthew:
Okay. I'll vamp. Yeah. I feel like you are a little worried about the prospect of digging into that soft and juicy Hachiya persimmon.
Molly:
Yeah. I mean, I think it's a little daunting. It's hard to imagine what it's going to taste like in there.
Matthew:
It's the size and shape of a plum, and it-
Molly:
No, it's bigger than that.
Matthew:
Okay. There are many different sizes of plums.
Molly:
Well, I know. But even a pretty big plum is smaller than this bad boy. What is this like? This is easily tennis ball size.
Matthew:
Okay. I think your bad boy was bigger than my bad boy, because mine, I would definitely say it is like large plum size.
Molly:
You may be the first man in the history of the world who is willing to admit that your bad boy is smaller than someone else's bad boy.
Matthew:
It's true. It's a good point. What I was going to say is that if you have more experience with eating plums that eating persimmons, a plum that was as soft as a Hachiya persimmon would be an over-ripe plum.
Molly:
Yes. It would be bland and mealy and gross.
Matthew:
Yeah. So you want to take a Hachiya persimmon further than you would take a plum. Yeah. You want to go all the way with it. I do want to go all the way with this thing.
Molly:
Yeah, I was a little bit hesitant and I'm not anymore.
Matthew:
Okay, good. Now that you've tasted both, which one do you like better?
Molly:
I think I prefer the Hachiya.
Matthew:
Yeah. I think I do too.
Molly:
I mean, the Fuyu is delightful and I... Here's the thing. I think I prefer a Fuyu that is still a bit crunchy because what I don't love about the Fuyu when it gets a bit soft is that the flesh has a really lovely, not mushy, but soft, juicy texture, but the skin is a little tough. The skin on these babies is thin, but snappy.
Matthew:
Yeah. Kind of thin and snappy.
Molly:
I didn't love, in my mouth, the texture of that, really delicious, juicy, soft flesh, and then the skin, because I didn't cut the skin off my [crosstalk 00:22:37].
Matthew:
Yeah. I think you can skin them.
Molly:
I could skin them. I wish that I had a not very ripe Fuyu around to compare to my right Fuyus. Anyway. Okay. Matthew hold on here is a really, really hot button issue. Do you like your persimmons at room temperature or cold?
Matthew:
I ate mine at room temperature, except for like the leftover Fuyu that I threw in the fridge and then ate some cold. I'm usually a cold fruit kind of person. I think I would prefer cold, but at the same time, a ripe Hachiya persimmon has what I think of as a creamy, tropical fruit texture. In the realm of true tropical fruits, there's stuff like... What's the custard apple called?
Matthew:
This is going to drive me nuts, because a carambola is that star fruit, and that's not what I'm talking about. There are fruits that have a custard-like texture and are very sweet and thick, but also soft and gooey. Those, I think on the whole, are better at room temperature or warmer than room temperature because you're in the tropics. So I might take my Hachiya at room temperature and my Fuyu cold.
Molly:
Okay. I chilled both of mine because I just... I know that our listeners don't like this about me.
Matthew:
No, no, no.
Molly:
But I really, really-
Matthew:
Some of our listeners love cold fruit.
Molly:
I love cold fruit. I mean, I love like a warm raspberry when you buy it and you eat it in the parking lot of the store or the farmer's market or whatever. But I-
Matthew:
Do you pay for it before you do that?
Molly:
You do. You pay for it. But I just instinctively refrigerated both of my persimmons once they were ripe, and I'm really glad that I did. I really like this cool persimmon. I can imagine this being delightful on a really hot day, but unfortunately, since they are a fruit that grows when it's cold outside, I probably won't get to experience that.
Matthew:
Yeah. I know what you mean.
Molly:
Anyway, Matthew, will you talk a little bit-
Matthew:
I mean, you could microwave them. Oh, wait, you said eat them on a hot day. Never mind. You can't-
Molly:
Yeah. Maybe what I should do is I should maybe take a really hot shower, crank up the heat.
Matthew:
Sure. Crank up the heat. Yep.
Molly:
Crank up the heat, so I really-
Matthew:
Sit on the radiator.
Molly:
I really get that experience of being like sticky wet, humid skin. And then I eat my cold persimmon. That sounds amazing.
Matthew:
Then you have your spouse come and feed you persimmons. That is New Year's Eve sorted.
Molly:
You are welcome, listeners. Hope you've been ripening your persimmons.
Matthew:
Oh, you know our listeners have been ripening their persimmons. We can count on them for that.
Molly:
Matthew, while I eat the other half of my Hachiya persimmon, would you please talk about dehydrated or dried persimmons? Because this is a big thing in many parts of the world, particularly in Asia.
Matthew:
Yeah. It's a big thing and I will talk about it, but I have to make an embarrassing admission first off, which is that I don't think I've ever eaten one. I know mostly about the Japanese version, but throughout East Asia, China, Korea, Japan, Vietnam, there are traditional methods for drying persimmons outdoors. It could be quite a labor-intensive process. But it's like a premiere dried fruit.
Molly:
I also want to add that the varieties that are most often dehydrated are astringent varieties like the Hachiya.
Matthew:
Yes. Because the tannins are a natural preservative. Friend of the show, Sonoko Sakai has a wonderful book called Japanese Home Cooking. She's famous for a lot of things. She makes incredible homemade Hoshigaki. She'll take anything and make it from scratch. But every year she makes Hoshigaki, which are dried Hachiya persimmons or a stringent type persimmons. You pick them unripe, you peel them. You suspend them on strings on like a trellis.
Matthew:
I don't know if this would technically be a trellis, and you massage them daily. They get dark and get a powdery surface. Then they're eaten as a snack or used for making a Wagashi, which is Japanese traditional sweets. I try to get some because they do sell them at Uwajimaya. I could not get it together to get a trip to Uwajimaya and before this episode. I don't know if they would have actually had them in stock or not anyway. So maybe next persimmon episode. Maybe next New Year's.
Molly:
I'm really curious about what they taste like because Hachiya persimmons are such a... It's a really delicate flavor.
Matthew:
Yeah. Having talked about this now, I want to try an unripe one, just so I can understand this experience of having my mouth drawn awry with much agony or whatever it was. I'm curious now. I mean, it's not going to kill me, right?
Molly:
No. Well, hold on though, Matthew, because I've got some info about what it might do to you.
Matthew:
Okay. Before we get to horrible persimmon side effects, the [inaudible 00:27:38] that you need to know about. The thing I realize is we do this show every week. I just realized.
Molly:
Oh, you did?
Matthew:
I don't know if you're aware of this.
Molly:
Congratulations.
Matthew:
If I do get my hands on some Hoshigaki and try them, I could report on this in a future episode and not have to wait all the way till next year. Why don't you remind me about this?
Molly:
Okay, great. I'll try.
Matthew:
Thanks.
Molly:
Okay. Hold on. In Japan, have you ever encountered tea that's made from the dried leaves of Diospyros kaki?
Matthew:
I don't think so.
Molly:
Because that's apparently a thing too in Japan and Korea. I was just wondering.
Matthew:
I mean, it does seem like I am the kind of person who would have run across that, but I don't think I have.
Molly:
Yeah. Anyway. Okay. Aside from eating these things raw, drying them, you can also make baked goods or steamed sweets using persimmon, particularly the puree of a ripe... The mushy delightful inside of a Hachiya persimmon when it's ripe. David Lebovitz has some great recipes for persimmon cakes and persimmon breads. But what I found really interesting in reading about persimmon cakes and persimmon breads on the internet is nobody really describes the flavor of it. What does this stuff taste like?
Matthew:
Well, and it is a very mild flavor, like I said. I think it's a texture-driven food. Not that it's flavorless, but it's not like a bunkie over the head flavor like a... What's a fruit that has a really strong flavor? Like a raspberry.
Molly:
A passion fruit.
Matthew:
Yeah. It's not in the raspberry or passion fruit family. It's more of like, "I want a comforting, sweet-tasting floral gush."
Molly:
Gush. Yes. Okay. So also persimmon pudding, of course. You make that using Hachiya puree. Simply Recipes has a really good-looking recipe for persimmon pudding.
Matthew:
Okay, we can link to that.
Molly:
I've never eaten it. The texture looks a bit like pumpkin pie, but it's served more like brownies, like cut into squares without a crust.
Matthew:
Okay. That's interesting.
Molly:
Okay. But Matthew, here is why you should not eat unripened persimmons.
Matthew:
Okay. Here we go.
Molly:
Are you ready? I know we've talked about this biological phenomenon before. There is a particular tannin in an unripened persimmon that when it comes into contact with stomach acids can form a gluey mass. It's a particular type of bezoar called a phytobezoar, which just means that it's made mostly of plant material. They are often very hard and almost woody in consistency. And-
Matthew:
So this is a bad thing, isn't it?
Molly:
It's a bad thing. You can wind up with a hard and woody mass in your stomach that is a result of eating an unripened persimmon. So don't do that.
Matthew:
But if I just taste one. It's not going to cause a big ass bezoar, right?
Molly:
No. No. But interestingly enough, more than 85% of phytobezoars, so more than 85% of plant-caused bezoars are caused by unripe persimmons.
Matthew:
This feels like an old man thing to do, right?
Molly:
Doesn't it?
Matthew:
First of all, it probably takes a while to develop a big bezoar, but it's just like, "I like eating these things that draw my mouth awry with much torment. I've been eating them for years. I'm not dead yet. Try and stop me." And then an 85-pound lump of woody plant matter is removed surgically from your stomach.
Molly:
Well, but apparently in parts of the world where persimmons are grown, there are some times... Well, at least Wikipedia referred to it this way, as epidemics of bezoars.
Matthew:
Oh, no.
Molly:
Yeah.
Matthew:
I mean, is this going to turn out to be more of a sad thing when-
Molly:
This is a sad episode.
Matthew:
Where it's just like people didn't have other things to eat besides unripe persimmons?
Molly:
I think you're exactly right. Ding, ding.
Matthew:
I like a crotchety old band explanation better.
Molly:
Yeah. Me too. Okay. But anyway, I want wrap this up by talking a little bit more about the wood of persimmon trees because-
Matthew:
I like that you feel that this is on topic for the show. I'm excited to hear about it too, quite honestly. But on the apple episode, did we talk about other things you could do with the would have an apple tree? Because the answer is pretty much anything.
Molly:
Well, clearly I didn't do the research for the apple episode, now did I?
Matthew:
That's true because I made a bunch of funny apple... No, I think that was the first time when it was just all real apple names.
Molly:
Anyway, Matthew, so persimmon trees belong to the same genus as ebony trees. Anyway, they show up in a lot of traditional Korean and Japanese furniture that would have a persimmon tree. They're also pretty widely used in making wooden golf club heads, which I guess you and I would know about if we had ever played golf.
Matthew:
No. When this pandemic is let's head out on the lakes together and shoot some... What do you do out on the lakes? Like hit some... Let's go to the driving range.
Molly:
Putt some balls.
Matthew:
Let's go to the driving range and putt some balls.
Molly:
Persimmon wood is also often used in longbows.
Matthew:
Tin cup. Let's get a ball into the tin cup.
Molly:
Okay. Anyway-
Matthew:
Longbows?
Molly:
Longbows.
Matthew:
This is a really useful [crosstalk 00:33:00]-
Molly:
There are so many different sports that we are going to take up when this pandemic is over. Archery.
Matthew:
Archery is fun. Have you-
Molly:
Archery is fun. I didn't-
Matthew:
Have you fired a bow? Is that what they call it?
Molly:
Fired a bow. I did it in summer camp as a child. Yeah. And we used wooden bows and arrows. I remember the burn of whatever you call the string on a bow, like the-
Matthew:
Oh yeah. I think called the bowstring.
Molly:
Yeah. I remember the friction burn of it. I remember getting a splinter from the wooden arrow as it went whizzing past my finger.
Matthew:
I think I've only used fiberglass arrows. Yeah, no, I want an old school longbow with wooden arrows that breaks your arm trying to pull back the string.
Molly:
Earlier in the pandemic, June found a piece of driftwood that was perfectly bow shaped.
Matthew:
Oh, cool.
Molly:
And so, she and Ash spent an afternoon turning it into a bow and then making arrows. Then we put up a cardboard target on the side of the house. Wow, that bow did not work well, but it was really fun.
Matthew:
Yeah. I mean, it was good try though. I respect the endeavor.
Molly:
Thank you. Anyway-
Matthew:
Okay. So it's usually like golf club heads, longbows, and some wooden spoons, you said?
Molly:
Yeah.
Matthew:
And furniture.
Molly:
Yeah, and traditional Korean and Japanese furniture.
Matthew:
But when we head out on the lakes as we often so often do, we could have a persimmon in one hand and a golf club in the other hand whose head was made with wood from the same tree as the fruit that we're eating.
Molly:
God, that's amazing.
Matthew:
Think about that. I don't think the timeline really works there.
Molly:
I don't think so either. Wait, Matthew, I have an observation to share about my mouth.
Matthew:
Please. Is it being drawn awry with torment?
Molly:
No. No. I've now eaten about three-quarters of one Hachiya persimmon and my mouth has this really interesting feeling in it. I can tell that there were tannins involved in this.
Matthew:
Oh, interesting.
Molly:
You know sometimes after you eat or drink something tannic, it leaves it a lingering... It's not a feeling, it's not a flavor, but it's somewhere between a feeling and a flavor.
Matthew:
Yes. I know exactly what you mean. It's like a flavorful dryness.
Molly:
Yes. I've got a touch of that.
Matthew:
Interesting.
Molly:
Yeah. My mouth tastes really interesting. It's not bad.
Matthew:
Are you going to be concerned now about bezoars?
Molly:
No.
Matthew:
Okay.
Molly:
Because this is a very ripe persimmon. So I think the amount of that acid, or what was the thing that turned this to bezoars?
Matthew:
It was the tannins.
Molly:
The tannins. Okay. Certain amount. I don't think we have enough of the tannins for a bezoar.
Matthew:
I hope you're right.
Molly:
I'm counting up my tannins to see if I can buy a bezoar.
Matthew:
(singing)
Molly:
Okay. Matthew, hey, it's time for our new segment listener mail.
Matthew:
Okay. This is from a listener, Kara, who asks, "Can you please try to make more references to/jokes about key nut [inaudible 00:36:06]?"
Molly:
I am so grateful to listener Kara for loving the phrase key nut [inaudible 00:36:12] as much as I do.
Matthew:
Yep. Do you remember what episode that was? I don't think it was a peanut episode. Was it?
Molly:
No. God-
Matthew:
Might have been.
Molly:
What was it? I bet Listener Kara knows.
Matthew:
You know what? Our listeners are very good at researching our back catalog in ways that we are not. So if you know the answer, you can email us, [email protected], which is also a great place to ask us a question that could be used on a future listener mail segment. Oh, I came up with a name for the listener mail segment. What do you think of this, spilled mail?
Molly:
Okay.
Matthew:
When I woke up this morning at like 6:15, and that was the thing that popped into my head. I'm like, "Oh, this is such a clever idea."
Molly:
Oh my God, this is me and every thought I've ever had in the middle of the night.
Matthew:
Yes, right?
Molly:
Yes.
Matthew:
I've been working lately writing original songs. I do not have anything to share because... I know this is the curse of every creative person in every creative endeavor. Wow, I've used the word endeavor several times on this episode. But if an idea pops in my head, like, "Oh, this is a catchy tune. All right, I'm going to turn this into a song." And then like 30 seconds later, I'm like, "Oh, this is garbage." I don't mean the band Garbage which has many catchy songs.
Molly:
What was your song about? You have to tell us now?
Matthew:
Well, I need help with lyrics. I need to practice.
Molly:
Oh God. Matthew, that's such a cop out.
Matthew:
Okay. I wrote a song that I took two nightmares that I had recently and made a verse about each of them and then a chorus about nightmares in general. All right?
Molly:
Okay.
Matthew:
I'm not going to go into more detail than that.
Molly:
Fine. Okay. By the way, I'm really sorry you've had two nightmares lately. Wow. That's a lot of nightmares.
Matthew:
I have about one nightmare a month.
Molly:
Oh, okay. Okay. That's not terrible.
Matthew:
Do you have nightmares?
Molly:
Not often. But when I do have them, they're sometimes really... Well, I'm told that I do a very quick running motion in my sleep when I have a nightmare, like I run in place. In my nightmares, I often am trying to yell something.
Matthew:
Oh yes.
Molly:
And I get it out. I know this in my dream and I'm very disturbed by it. But I often will wake Ash up with my noisy efforts to make a sound in my dream. I'll be like, "[inaudible 00:38:35]." like that. Anyway, I had a dream sometime in the last year and a half or so that I rolled over in bed and crushed a baby owl.
Matthew:
That would be so upsetting in the dream.
Molly:
I made so much noise in the middle of the night. There was so much like weird moan-whaling happening. Anyway-
Matthew:
Oh yeah. That would be awful.
Molly:
Anyway. Yeah. That was a nightmare that was memorable.
Matthew:
Yeah. No, I just cycle through the same ones. I've had a bunch lately, more of these are nuts. Not really nightmary. But I keep having dreams where I suddenly realize that I don't have a mask in a situation that definitely requires one.
Molly:
Oh God. Yeah. Wow. Talk about a 2020 kind of dream.
Matthew:
Very topical.
Molly:
Yeah. Wow. That's intense.
Matthew:
I often dream that I'm supposed to perform a concert and have it practiced or prepared in any way.
Molly:
Yeah. This all makes sense. My dreams are not this easy to read.
Matthew:
Oh yeah. Mine are always like... You do not need to dig up Freud to figure out what's going on here.
Molly:
What do you think my baby owl meant?
Matthew:
Was this around the time you went to the owl cafe?
Molly:
No. No, I don't think so.
Matthew:
Well, I mean, yeah. It's every parent's fear of you're going to do something to ruin your child. I'm going to separate those into two things. Every parent has fears and also you are going to do something to ruin your child.
Molly:
Yeah. Yeah. No, this all makes sense. I think that June is a baby owl and I'm afraid of rolling over on her in my sleep.
Matthew:
Yeah, and crushing her dreams and her small bones.
Molly:
And her sweet little soft feathers.
Matthew:
Yeah. Exactly.
Molly:
Okay. Yeah.
Matthew:
You might want to take her in and have that looked at.
Molly:
Okay. Well, this has been another information-filled episode of Spilled Milk.
Matthew:
I enjoyed it very much. Thank you for doing the research.
Molly:
You are so welcome. I didn't know what I didn't know about persimmons. And now that I do know what I didn't know. I'm glad I know it.
Matthew:
Oh, we have just enough time for a very brief episode of cute animals you need to know. Our cute animal you need to know this week is the baby owl that Molly crushed in her sleep.
Molly:
Okay. All right. Well, our producer is Abby Cerquitella and you can find us everywhere you already found us.
Matthew:
Yes. If you want to talk about the show with other listeners, a great place to do that is on Reddit, reddit.com/r/everything spilled milk. Until next time, thank you for listening to Spilled Milk.
Molly:
Do you remember there was a closing joke about snapping your tendons, which is what I did to the baby owl.
Matthew:
Oh yeah. I mean-
Molly:
I don't know if owls have tendons.
Matthew:
That is more vivid than necessary. Also, I think that joke was like over 400 episodes ago. But it's time to bring it back so that we can leave people with a mental image of you destroying a helpless animal. So I'm Matthew Amster-Burton.
Molly:
I'm Molly Wizenberg.
Matthew:
I'm ready to talk about simmies. That's what I call persimmons.
Molly:
Really?
Matthew:
No.
Molly:
Awesome.
Matthew:
I just said that for the first time ever and I don't like it.
Molly:
Yeah. Don't do that again.
Matthew:
Okay.
Molly:
Okay.
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