460: Pepperoni
Molly:
I'm Molly.
Matthew:
And I'm Matthew
Molly:
And this is Spilled Milk, the show where we cook something, delicious, eat it all, and you can't have anything.
Matthew:
And today we're talking about pepperoni.
Molly:
Oh yeah.
Matthew:
Yes.
Molly:
This is episode number 460. I know I always say this, but I can't believe it's taken us this long to get around to pepperoni.
Matthew:
But on the other hand we've talked about pepperoni a bunch of times before, because we did a pizza topping episode, we did a pan pizza episode, I know we talked about pepperoni then. It's not like we've been pretending that pepperoni wasn't out there-
Molly:
No.
Matthew:
... or in here, meaning my stomach.
Molly:
We haven't been giving it its due, and-
Matthew:
It's time to give pepperoni it's due, finally.
Molly:
Yes. It sounds like we're going to give it a hair cut or something.
Matthew:
It's time to give pepperoni a haircut, possibly the worst euphemism I've ever heard.
Molly:
Okay.
Matthew:
Hey buddy, it's time to give that pepper a haircut.
Molly:
Let's go down memory lane.
Matthew:
Pepperoni was always my favorite pizza topping as a kid. I know this is hard to believe that a kid would be into pepperoni, but I think it's probably still my favorite pizza toppings.
Molly:
I know we've talked about pizzas of our youth, but are we talking like Domino's, Papa John's kind of thing?
Matthew:
Yes, I definitely had those, but also my parents were into some local pizzerias. There was ... I'm trying to remember. The one right near my house was called Pizza Express, and it was one of these little ... I don't think it was a chain. I think it was just a cheap neighborhood pizza place. And I remember I would get the French Bread Pizza for lunch. It was one of the first places I could walk to myself and get lunch, because it was three blocks from my house. You could get two toppings on the French Bread Pizza for $2, and we'd usually get pepperoni and onion, or pepperoni and green paprika.
Molly:
Oh my gosh. I love this. I love that you were eating French bread pizza from a pizzeria and-
Matthew:
I know-
Molly:
... not just from Stouffer's
Matthew:
... and also we would get Round Table, we would get Big Tomato Pizzas, sometimes. Flying Pie came in later, I think. The Organ Grinder-
Molly:
Growing up in Oklahoma, I mostly remember Domino's and Little Caesars, and of the three basic pizzas that would show up at a slumber party, just knock on the door-
Matthew:
SPP, Slumber Party Pizzas.
Molly:
There was always the plain cheese pizza, there was the ... Didn't we call it a hamburger pizza?
Matthew:
Yeah.
Molly:
We didn't call it sausage.
Matthew:
But there were both. Both existed.
Molly:
And I think we used to get the hamburger-
Matthew:
Sure.
Molly:
... at slumber parties, and then there was the pepperoni. And I was a little bit afraid of pepperoni as a young child because-
Matthew:
You thought it might be spicy.
Molly:
I think I thought it might be spicy, or too much flavor, eek. But as soon as I moved on from a plain cheese pizza, pepperoni was definitely my choice. It was also always my choice when I became old enough to start hanging out at the mall with my friends-
Matthew:
Yes.
Molly:
... and we would go to Sparrow, which my former mother-in-law always pronounced as, "Sparrow, Sparrow, sparrows, sparrows." There we go. We would go to Sparrow and get one of those giant slices covered in grease, and I would always get the pepperoni.
Matthew:
I got to say, I love all pizza, and yet like when I think about Sparrow, I feel a little grossed out.
Molly:
My stomach is rumbling, thinking about Sparrow right now. If we were not in the pandemic, I would so be at the nearest mall right after this is over
Matthew:
I have a couple of non pizza-related pepperoni memory lanes. So, at one point when I was a kid, I was puttering around in the kitchen. I was very puttering sort of child. And I discovered, I can't remember which one I tried first, because I knew I used to do both, that you can saute a microwave pepperoni and it turns into a crispy snack.
Molly:
Oh, do you think this was shortly after the microwave invention, that the microwave was invented?
Matthew:
It may have been shortly after the microwave was invented in the 50s.
Molly:
No. But I mean shortly after the microwave arrived in your own house.
Matthew:
Yeah. We've talked about ... We did a microwave episode. That our family microwave, when I was growing up, was above-the-stove style that I think my dad and our handy friend, Mark, installed. And I remember what it looked like before it was installed. I think my parents got it at a yard sale for like $20, and it lasted years.
Molly:
I have never had an above-the-stove microwave. My family microwave, growing up, was this behemoth that sat on the counter. And I remember it had a legit handle on it.
Matthew:
Legit handle.
Molly:
I guess a lot of them do. But usually it's just the kind of handle where you hook your fingers behind something and hold.
Matthew:
Oh, yeah. That's definitely what we have now.
Molly:
No, no. This had a straight up handle, like you're opening-
Matthew:
I know what you're talking about. Like an Oldsmobile.
Molly:
Yes, yes. But-
Matthew:
This is not your father's Oldsmobile, this is a microwave. Weird ad campaign, but very effective.
Molly:
I've never tried this microwaving or sauteing pepperoni.
Matthew:
Recommended.
Molly:
It gets crispy, almost like chip crispy or like bacon crispy?
Matthew:
Like bacon chip crispy, yeah.
Molly:
Yum, yum.
Matthew:
I'm surprised this isn't sold in bags at a convenience store or a gas station, but we are going to get to a commercial crispy pepperoni preparation.
Molly:
Great, okay.
Matthew:
Another non pizza-related pepperoni memory. We used to go to this place called the West Hills brew pub, near where I grew up, and it was a McMenamins chain brew pub. I would get the pep and cheese sandwich, which was a sandwich with pepperoni and melted cheese, and I want to say it had sauerkraut on it, maybe.
Molly:
Oh, that sounds fantastic.
Matthew:
I'm not sure about that, but I seem to remember that, for some reason. Doesn't that sound good?
Molly:
That sounds fantastic. Have you recreated this at home?
Matthew:
No, because I literally just remembered it last night, after not thinking about it for at least 20 years.
Molly:
Was it mozzarella cheese, or [crosstalk 00:06:25] cheese?
Matthew:
Possibly 30 years. Why do I have a 30 year span that I can even discuss in my life? It's not acceptable.
Molly:
No, it's not.
Matthew:
Basically, in what's going to feel like days from now, I'm going to be talking about things that happened 50 years ago, and I'm not going to be happy about that either.
Molly:
Well, for a while, 50 years ago is going to be like when you were an infant. You're going to get to ease into [crosstalk 00:06:50]-
Matthew:
Yeah, but not a long while.
Molly:
That's true, fine. But anyway, do you think it was mozzarella? What was the cheese?
Matthew:
I think it was ... I think it could have been mozzarella, or maybe provolone.
Molly:
That makes sense.
Matthew:
Wouldn't provolone, sauerkraut and pepperoni be a great sandwich?
Molly:
Matthew, when I come over to pick up my paycheck next month, would you make me a mozzarella pepperoni and sauerkraut sandwich and deliver it to me through the car window?
Matthew:
Is our listener keeping a list of things we've been asking each other to provide at this legendary meeting that's going to occur on October 1st?
Molly:
Our monthly handoff.
Matthew:
I feel like there's going to be a sandwich, and you are going to make a [inaudible 00:07:33], and, [crosstalk 00:07:34]
Molly:
All right.
Matthew:
... you ask for your paycheck in gold ingots, it's going to be like one microscopic shaving of an ingot-
Molly:
I was going to say, I'm going to need to bring over a jeweler's loop or something in order to even find it in the palm of your hand.
Matthew:
The other day, teenager of the show, Iris, held out their hand and said, "If you have a nugget of gold this big, how much do you think that would be worth?" We were like, "Thousands of dollars." And Iris was very impressed by this.
Molly:
Wow. Isn't it great to be a new person on earth?
Matthew:
Yeah, right. I'm not saying that we had ... I started making it sound like we went into our uncle Scrooge money bid and pulled out-
Molly:
No, I don't think-
Matthew:
... hunk of gold.
Molly:
I don't think anyone thought you did that, Matthew. I think we were, everyone knew we were talking in hypothetical.
Matthew:
If we can back up a second, I said a hunk of gold, but of course I meant a nugget.
Molly:
Oh, I'm so glad you cleared that up.
Matthew:
Do you have any other pepperoni memory lane before we move on?
Molly:
I don't think so. I think my pepperoni memory lane is pretty much exclusively pizza related.
Matthew:
That makes sense.
Molly:
Tell me about this. Where does pepperoni come from?
Matthew:
Pepperoni is an American salami, and it is derived from spicy Southern Italian salamis, like a sobrassada, but it's got a more fine grain texture, a redder color and is junkier, in a delightful way.
Molly:
It is. It always seems less like it actually came from an animal than other [crosstalk 00:09:11].
Matthew:
I know what you mean. And it is not a word that would be understood in Italy, where you can definitely get salami on pizza, but pepperoni means sweet or bell peppers in Italian.
Molly:
Okay, that makes sense.
Matthew:
The word was coined by Italian American immigrants and dates to 1894, weirdly enough-
Molly:
[crosstalk 00:09:30] specific?
Matthew:
... that I don't really necessarily buy that, but this is from an article from Thrillist, that we'll link to in the show description. But it didn't become really popular on pizza until the 60s-
Molly:
Wow.
Matthew:
... which is when pizza became a mass market take out food.
Molly:
I wonder what people were doing with it until the 60s.
Matthew:
I think probably it was among the deli salamis that you could find in an Italian deli and then later a supermarket deli. I don't know when it would have appeared in a non Italian supermarket deli.
Molly:
It's interesting that we always think of pepperoni now as a salami that gets cooked, and not one that we eat the way that we eat cold cuts, although you certainly can, and I know you do, Matthew-
Matthew:
Oh, I do.
Molly:
... and I have as well. When I worked at Delancey, I would just, sometimes for a snack, grab a little handful of the already sliced pepperoni for pizza-
Matthew:
Of course.
Molly:
... and eat that stuff. So good. But it's interesting to think that pepperoni ever became something that we think of as solely being an ingredient or being cooked-
Matthew:
That's a good point.
Molly:
... when, maybe there was a time when it was just one of the deli meat, maybe.
Matthew:
Except in the form of pepperoni sticks.
Molly:
That's true.
Matthew:
Right?
Molly:
Okay. And pepperoni sticks are ubiquitous and of course we think of that as just something you grab and go.
Matthew:
But also, I put this on the agenda for a little later, but of pepperoni sticks as being something different from pepperoni slices, even though it's made of the same stuff.
Molly:
I think that most people would probably agree with you there. Because they serve such a different purpose and are eaten in a way different contexts.
Matthew:
But also I think the fact that that pepperoni sticks are not a slice in topology, makes it chew very differently.
Molly:
It puts it more in the direction of a beef jerky chill.
Matthew:
It goes more in a jerky direction.
Molly:
Okay, great. Let's move in the-
Matthew:
This has been our jerky lanes, if segment.
Molly:
Jerky lanes?
Matthew:
Jerky lane, like memory lane, but jerky lane.
Molly:
Oh, okay.
Matthew:
Jerky Lane's is where I used to bowl as a child.
Molly:
Yes. And where everybody ... do they want you to bowl in spastic ways, very jerky movements, not a nice, smooth, under hand situation?
Matthew:
No, no. None of that. That'll get you kicked out of Jerky Lane's. You have to do some dance that Elaine did on Seinfeld-
Molly:
Yes.
Matthew:
... where she was sticking her thumbs out and kicking and stuff.
Molly:
Yes.
Matthew:
You need to do that while bowling, and you need to have a handful of beef jerky in whichever hand you're not bowling with-
Molly:
I can't wait to go bowling again.
Matthew:
I know, me too.
Molly:
Oh God.
Matthew:
Even at a regular non imaginary bowling out.
Molly:
Yes. Not even at Jerky Lane's, just like West Seattle Bowl or something, [crosstalk 00:12:20] Seattle.
Matthew:
And not like late night bowling with disco, the disco bowl and stuff.
Molly:
No. I mean just regular old bowling.
Matthew:
Right.
Molly:
Preferably where you share a big tray of naturals.
Matthew:
You know what? I realized when I think about a bowling alley ... And I don't know if this impression is actually true, but I think of a bowling alley as being a place where they do have music playing over the PA, but kind of quietly, so you can have a comfortable conversation.
Molly:
That is exactly how bowling [crosstalk 00:12:47]-
Matthew:
Is that right?
Molly:
Yes, that's exactly how they are.
Matthew:
Bowling alleys are great.
Molly:
Bowling alleys are perfectly calibrated to the human condition.
Matthew:
Exactly.
Molly:
Not too loud, not too quiet.
Matthew:
Sometimes it's hard to find a ball that feels like the right weight for me, but the finger holes aren't too small.
Molly:
I always get this issue where, there's something about the way that my thumbnail at the edge intersects with my skin, and after a while of bowling, it really makes my thumbs sore, right where the skin meets the edge of my thumbnail.
Matthew:
Life is hard. They probably make a special ointment, just for bowler's thumb.
Molly:
A bowler's thumb.
Matthew:
Go to your favorite ointment on [inaudible 00:13:31] shop and ask them about bowlers thumb, they'll know exactly what you're talking about.
Molly:
Let's get back to Jerky Lane's.
Matthew:
[inaudible 00:13:39].
Molly:
Jerky Lane's.
Matthew:
That's where we're getting back to.
Molly:
Yes.
Matthew:
Pizza Hut opened in 1958, and they sold a pepperoni pizza for $35. Good old days.
Molly:
That was probably the only good thing about 1958, [crosstalk 00:13:56].
Matthew:
True. Pepperoni was a natural fit for mass market pizza because it's cheap, it's durable, it's easy to ship, it keeps forever in the fridge and it's tasty.
Molly:
It's also shelf stable, is it not?
Matthew:
Yeah, yeah.
Molly:
Like most salamis.
Matthew:
Right. But I think once you open the pack-
Molly:
Yes.
Matthew:
... of slices-
Molly:
Yes.
Matthew:
... or start slicing the log. I don't think they slice pepperoni log at most pizzerias, right?
Molly:
No, I think they buy pre-sliced.
Matthew:
The deep red color of pepperoni comes from a combination of heavy use of curing salts, paprika, and natural coloring, usually oleoresin paprika, which is a thing I learned a little more about while researching this. Do you want to know about oleoresin paprika?
Molly:
Do we need to know more about it?
Matthew:
No, we do not need to.
Molly:
I would love to know more, though. Tell me about the Oleoresin part of it.
Matthew:
In paprika, and in all red peppers, there are three red pigments. One of which is ... There's capsaicin, and then there are two capsaicin related molecules that are bright red. An oleoresin paprika is a non spicy extract of paprika that used as a natural color, and is one of these things ... I think we've talked about caramel color on the show before. You can buy it online from industrial food supply house. I have not done this, but I understand, it's one of these food dyes that is so concentrated, that if you put a tiny drop of it in a gallon of water, it will turn noticeably red.
Molly:
Sorry. I'm just chewing my apple.
Matthew:
I can tell you're very impressed with the power of Oleoresin,
Molly:
I am. Oleoresin, does it have something to do with ... Is it fat, is it fat soluble? Is it the oleo part of it?
Matthew:
That's a good question. I think that sounds right to me, because it's like a big largely non-polar molecule, so it would be fat soluble, I think.
Molly:
Okay, cool. I'm glad we got to the bottom of that.
Matthew:
But then I just said you could color water with it, which doesn't seem to fit that, so more research. I know we have food scientists who listen to this show, we want to know more about Oleoresin paprika, our listeners are crying out for this knowledge.
Molly:
Matthew, I see here on the agenda that pepperoni is the most popular pizza topping in the U.S.
Matthew:
This was an actual U.S. Government, USDA survey-
Molly:
Are you kidding me?
Matthew:
... I don't know why. I'm serious. People were asked, "What are your top three pizza toppings?" And pepperoni was placed in the top three by 53% of Americans. And, rounding out the top three are sausage and mushrooms.
Molly:
That's thrilling.
Matthew:
I don't know. I feel, compared to a lot of other things the federal government does, spending time surveying people at pizza toppings seems pretty benign.
Molly:
And a great use of our money.
Matthew:
Again, though.
Molly:
That's true. Compared to what they regularly are doing with our money. Okay, fine. You win this round.
Matthew:
Thanks. I went down a little rabbit hole of looking at different versions of the pizza emoji and did not find one that didn't have pepperoni on it. Some of them have pepperoni and another topping, but often it's just pepperoni.
Molly:
I didn't realize there was more than one pizza emoji.
Matthew:
Well, there's-
Molly:
It depends on what app you have or whatever?
Matthew:
Yes, exactly. There's one that appears on iPhone, and one on Android, and Windows, and Facebook has their own, and there's a lot of different versions of any given emoji. It's not that there are multiple pizza emojis. It's just different instantiations of the same pizza emoji.
Molly:
Yes. I'm sorry, this is my last bite of apple.
Matthew:
Okay.
Molly:
We're good, I'm ready, I'm done. All right. In West Virginia, miners and others eat pepperoni rolls, which is a packaged sandwich, similar to a stromboli, with pepperoni and cheese baked inside a bun. Is this something you could buy at a convenience store?
Matthew:
Absolutely. But only in certain parts of the country. It seems a very regional product, I've never seen this myself, but I found lots of pictures of them online and they look really tasty.
Molly:
I wonder if we could get them shipped to us.
Matthew:
I think so, because I think they're shelf stable.
Molly:
Oh, I would love this. Maybe we should include some in our Glycine Max boxes [crosstalk 00:18:19].
Matthew:
That's an interesting idea because I ... Probably, it would be tricky to order just one. But if we got a case of 12 of them, we could send them out to Glycine Max super members and eat some ourselves.
Molly:
This is an exciting part.
Matthew:
Can we make a note of this, Producer Abby?
Molly:
Oh, okay. Suddenly we're having a huge drop in number of Glycine Max subscribers.
Matthew:
No, no, no. You don't think our listeners, upon hearing about a new kind shelf stable pepperoni sandwich-
Molly:
They want it.
Matthew:
... they want it.
Molly:
What was I thinking?
Matthew:
You know, you want it.
Molly:
Were you able to find other regional North American pepperoni places?
Matthew:
You're very good at setting me up for these things, thank you. In Nova Scotia, Canada, I learned that deep fried pepperoni served on its own, usually with a honey mustard dipping sauce, is common pub food.
Molly:
We are going to Nova Scotia.
Matthew:
I was reading from Wikipedia, by the way. I would like to go to Nova Scotia-
Molly:
Oh, man. Spilled Milk corporate retreat, Nova Scotia.
Matthew:
Perfect, okay.
Molly:
Oh my God. When do we have our next corporate retreat? I don't know, 2023?
Matthew:
Right. We were talking about Detroit, but I think maybe we should do Nova Scotia first.
Molly:
I am all for Nova Scotia. Yes-
Matthew:
I love this idea.
Molly:
... yes, yes. Producer Abby, please make note of this and start packing your suitcase.
Matthew:
We can go to the Halifax Explosion Memorial, we can-
Molly:
I bet there's some [inaudible 00:19:57] green gable stuff around there.
Matthew:
We can maybe see some sites related to some of my favorite Nova Scotia indie rock bands.
Molly:
I bet there's some [crosstalk 00:20:09]. I can't wait to see various historical monuments maybe, or ... I'm trying to think about other things, but it's going to be beautiful.
Matthew:
It's going to be lovely.
Molly:
I cannot wait.
Matthew:
I'm so excited for this.
Molly:
And we're going to eat deep fried pepperoni.
Matthew:
We're going to eat deep fried pepperoni. That's obviously the main reason we're going, but there's probably other stuff.
Molly:
We're going to need to find other foods for producer Abby, but I bet she'll come with us anyway.
Matthew:
I think so.
Molly:
Okay.
Matthew:
Let's talk about pepperoni at home. Do you buy pepperoni? And if so, do you have a brand that you like? Do you buy it in a stick or pre-sliced?
Molly:
I have never bought pepperoni, full stop.
Matthew:
Oh, I love how we can have one of these moments on almost every episode.
Molly:
What hasn't Molly done? Everything.
Matthew:
Haven't been to Nova Scotia, apparently [crosstalk 00:21:01].
Molly:
I haven't been to Nova Scotia, never bought pepperoni. What was the episode yesterday? It was quince. Oh, but that was a whole bunch of Matthew nevers.
Matthew:
I feel like we're rewriting the song don't know much about history.
Molly:
Don't know much about pepperoni, don't know much [inaudible 00:21:17].
Matthew:
Never bought macaroni.
Molly:
I've bought macaroni-
Matthew:
I know.
Molly:
... come on now.
Matthew:
Don't know what goes into making spumone.
Molly:
But I do know I'm coming homey.
Matthew:
Wait, is there a comma there between coming and homey?
Molly:
No. There was no comma. Only when I'm talking to my spouse, [inaudible 00:21:43], God.
Matthew:
That's what I say to my spouse, "Yo, I'm coming homey."
Molly:
I should not get a real case of the giggles this past weekend, talking about what would have happened if you had an orgasm and just screamed, "Bloody murder."
Matthew:
It was just yesterday.
Molly:
Just, open mouths.
Matthew:
Well, are you wondering what I was going to finish that sentence with? I was just yesterday reading the Slate's sex column, and there was essentially a question about this. The person writing, it's like, "My boyfriend has orgasm so intense that it's scaring me." But then it became clear that the person writing it hadn't actually really talked to their boyfriend about this.
Molly:
That seems like a good first step. But anyway, wouldn't it be fun if you were like, "I'm coming." [inaudible 00:22:45].
Matthew:
That's a novel definition of fun.
Molly:
I can't wait to try it out.
Matthew:
I can't wait too.
Molly:
Any way-
Matthew:
Are you going to remember this at the right moment? You might need to leave yourself a note on the book-side table-
Molly:
Ash reminded-
Matthew:
... and then your spouse will find this note, like, "What does this mean?"
Molly:
Ash reminded me of it actually, a couple hours after we had had the giggles about it. I think Ash will help me remember.
Matthew:
Okay, good. I do buy pepperoni.
Molly:
Go on.
Matthew:
I have two favorite pepperonis, one old favorite and one recent. I think it was a product that was recently introduced and I'm loving it. But I also think ... I was talking about this last night with wife of the show, Lori, and she said, which I thought really nailed it, that she thinks pepperoni ranges in quality from good to very good. I'm not a big fan of the little chunky pepperoni's on like frozen pizza, but other than that, I can't think of a bad pepperoni I've had,
Molly:
Do you have a preference for ... I remember when we were tasting different pepperonis, different salamis, and things before opening Delancey-
Matthew:
Right, I remember that.
Molly:
... I remember Brandon really thinking about whether it was important to him that the pepperoni curl up into a little cap [crosstalk 00:24:19]. Because-
Matthew:
I do like that very much.
Molly:
I like it too, and I think of that as a thing in many New York pizzas that I've enjoyed. I think of the slices being smaller in diameter, maybe a little thicker than what we used at Delancey.
Matthew:
I think you're exactly right.
Molly:
And anyway, in the oven they curl up into a little cap.
Matthew:
Well, then let me talk about my two favorite home pepperonis, starting with Hormel's Cup 'N Crisp, which is something I saw in the pepperoni aisle and I was like, "Okay, this was invented for me." Because it is a pre sliced blister pack pepperoni that is designed to do exactly that. I think they are a little smaller and a little thicker and they might have an artificial casing, also might be related, I'm not sure. And one thing I like about this product is that it has instructions on it, and instructions are put on your pizza, bake the pizza and they'll curl up-
Molly:
I love the uniqueness of those instructions.
Matthew:
They work really well. It's very tasty pepperoni. And one thing I like about it is that, one out of every 10 will curl downwards instead of upwards and make this little dome, Truman Show, like what's going on under there kind of pepperoni dome. That's really cute, definitely recommend this.
Molly:
You mentioned here that the Boar's had one that you often buy.
Matthew:
Oh yeah. I hadn't even gotten to that one yet.
Molly:
Go ahead and talk about it.
Matthew:
I don't really remember when I started getting this a few years ago, I think I probably read about it in a serious eats tasting, that they, "If you're not slicing your own pepperoni for pizza, give it a try." I found the Boar's Head traditional pepperoni with natural casing. They sell it at the regular QFC near me. And it's a salami stick, but it's pepperoni-
Molly:
What?
Matthew:
... and-
Molly:
Wait, hold on. What part of the grocery store do you find pepperoni in?
Matthew:
It's in ... Well, this Boar's Head has its own section in the store. The Boar's Head pepperoni, I find in one of the islands right across from the deli case.
Molly:
Oh, where they have goat cheese or-
Matthew:
Yap.
Molly:
... hummus-
Matthew:
Exactly.
Molly:
... that kind of thing.
Matthew:
Yeah, near the hummus. The regular pepperoni is near the bacon usually.
Molly:
Ah, this makes sense. Got it.
Matthew:
Hanging from a hook above the bacon.
Molly:
Okay, perfect.
Matthew:
Right there in the pepperoni section was a hook.
Molly:
And so, how do you slice it? Just with a knife? And how-
Matthew:
Just with a knife.
Molly:
... have you decided what thickness you want to slice it to?
Matthew:
I like pretty thin. If you do it a little thicker, it'll curl better, but I like just biting through a thin pepperoni. That's just what I grew up with pizza wise.
Molly:
Are we talking ... When you buy pre-sliced Genoa salami, like the pre-packaged deli meat case. That thickness, it's not like paper thin-
Matthew:
Yes.
Molly:
... but like-
Matthew:
Exactly like that. And I like this pepperoni, because it's a very tasty pepperoni. I do think it is better tasting than the Hormel pepperoni, which is very tasty to start with. But also when you're slicing your own pepperoni, it's hard to slice perfectly. And so every time you have an imperfect slice where it trails off to nothing on one side or it's a little too thick, I just eat that slice.
Molly:
There's this recipe that I know we've talked about before. I think we have even made it for an episode, like hundreds of episodes ago.
Matthew:
Probably.
Molly:
It's this chicken meatball recipe from ... Is it from The Splendid Table cookbook?
Matthew:
It's from The Italian Country Table by Lynne Rossetto Kasper.
Molly:
Okay. So, that recipe, it's a chicken meatball. It has spinach in it, but it also calls for a couple ounces of pepperoni, right?
Matthew:
Yeah. Just for flavor. It's great. It's such a great recipe.
Molly:
What form does the pepperoni go in?
Matthew:
Oh. Well, you whiz it up in the food processor, the chicken, the spinach, the pepperoni and onions maybe. And so I just throw pepperoni slices into the food processor.
Molly:
If I'm going to make that recipe and I get the Boar's Head Traditional pepperoni, and I slice it myself, I'll just slice it as though I were going to put it on pizza.
Matthew:
Yeah. But also you can slice it pretty haphazardly for this recipe, I think.
Molly:
Cool. Well maybe we could link to that recipe in the show notes too.
Matthew:
I think so.
Molly:
Because I don't think of many places where we cook with pepperoni. It's not just pepperoni lying on top of a pizza or on a sandwich but-
Matthew:
Or inside a calzone, which I know you've never had, but it's a pizza that's folded over, and the pizza stuff is inside.
Molly:
I've heard of them, yes. I don't know if you remember, but for nine years I co-owned a pizzeria.
Matthew:
I do. But did you ever sample ... But I know they didn't serve calzones.
Molly:
No, but sometimes they would make calzones for staff meals or-
Matthew:
But whenever they did, you would run away.
Molly:
I never ate it, yeah. I ran away.
Matthew:
When you look at it-
Molly:
I was like "[crosstalk 00:29:15] ouch!"-
Matthew:
... I don't think so.
Molly:
Matthew, how do you like your pepperoni pizza? Do you put on a lot of pepperoni, little bit of pepperoni? Do you want it to get charred? What do you do?
Matthew:
I like a lot of pepperoni and I like it to get charred, and I am happy when it curls up, but it's not necessary. I will sometimes defat the pepperoni a little bit before putting it on the pizza because-
Molly:
How do you do that?
Matthew:
... I don't really need the whole slick of pepperoni fat. I know some people look for that in a pepperoni pizza, and that's totally cool if that's where you're into. I'll throw it in the microwave for just a few seconds, with a paper towel.
Molly:
I was going to say, do you stand there with the pointy end of a chopstick and poke out all the little fat globs?
Matthew:
No. The point of the end of a chopstick is still too course for that. I use a sewing needle.
Molly:
Perfect. I've got plenty of those. Do you arrange it evenly or do you toss them on ... Do you mind if they're slightly overlapping?
Matthew:
I like it if they're slightly overlapping. Have you ever been to Flying Pie Pizza? There's one in Issaquah. It's a Portland chain-
Molly:
No-
Matthew:
... originally.
Molly:
... no. I've never even heard of it.
Matthew:
Flying pie is this pizza place that whenever I describe it to anyone who loves pizza and hasn't been there, they're like, "That sounds bad." Because they put ridiculous quantities of any topping that you order on the pizza in-
Molly:
That does sound bad.
Matthew:
... to the extent that it seems it would get soggy or the proportions would be way off. Somehow it comes out great. And their pepperoni pizza sometimes, there'll be like four pepperonis stacked in one point, because they just throw handfuls of the stuff on, and it's so good. I do not do that at home, but I will deliberately try to not make my pepperoni arrangement too regular because that bothers me for some reason. I don't know why.
Molly:
I get that. I remember it's just one of those sort of particular things that happens when you're a cook. You get these sort of weird things that you do or don't like.
Matthew:
Hang ups, I call them.
Molly:
Hang ups. For instance, I remember ... We've talked a lot about Ed Fretwell Soup.
Matthew:
Yes.
Molly:
Whenever I would make Ed Fretwell Soup, which is a very-
Matthew:
Can I tell you something embarrassing?
Molly:
Yes.
Matthew:
We've talked about Ed Fretwell Soup many, many times, and it appears in your book, Homemade Life.
Molly:
But you've never had it.
Matthew:
Not only if I'd never had it, but if you pointed a gun at me right now over the internet and said, "What kind of soup is Ed Fretwell Soup, and what goes into it?" I do not know.
Molly:
Oh, okay. It's a version of a minestrone. It's like-
Matthew:
I think that's maybe what I would've guessed.
Molly:
It's a chunky vegetable soup. It has white beans in it. It has tomato. It does not have any pasta. But anyway, it's got carrots, onions, celery, the usual suspects-
Matthew:
Sure.
Molly:
... zucchini, usually chard, or kale, cabbage. And it's very, very chunky.
Matthew:
Sounds good, wife. I never made this.
Molly:
It's really good. And by the time .... It takes quite a while to cook and it makes a lot. And I always know that it's done because the combination of the starch that the white beans have given off has made this perfect alchemy with the tomatoey broth, such that the broth of the soup is a creamy looking orange. And that's how you know it's done. It no longer looks like a soup that has tomatoes in it and beans just floating around in it. It looks like some of the beans have given their beaniness to the broth.
Matthew:
Yes.
Molly:
It's really good. But what I was going to say is ... I don't remember.
Matthew:
Well, so it was a hang up.
Molly:
What I was going to say is that, whenever I would make that, when Brandon and I were together, he didn't like carrots cut into coins. And so-
Matthew:
Oh, I totally agree.
Molly:
Really?
Matthew:
Yeah.
Molly:
Most of the time I was like, "Whatever, dude. Suck it. I'm making this soup, leave me alone." But occasionally just to see how it looked without the carrot coins, I would cut them instead into triangles. But I've got nothing against carrot coins. I love carrot coins. What is the problem?
Matthew:
Do I have a problem with carrot coins?
Molly:
I think some people have a snooty aversion to carrot coins because they seem like unsophisticated cafeteria food.
Matthew:
Is that it? Is it that when I want gold coins from my money bin-
Molly:
Yes, yes. That's what it is.
Matthew:
When I think about eating a gold coin ... No when I think about-
Molly:
Your cheeks start to hurt.
Matthew:
When I think about eating a carrot coin in a soup, I imagine it tumbling into my mouth in a way that I would prefer didn't happen, and would rather have like a chunk.
Molly:
Here's what I would like to tell you about me when I cut up carrots for [crosstalk 00:34:24]-
Matthew:
Please.
Molly:
As I'm working my way up the carrot from the skinny end, and I'm slicing, I slice into coins as far up the carrot as yields coins that are the size of maybe a nickel. Okay?
Matthew:
Okay.
Molly:
And then once I have hit that part of the carrot where it's going to start to get fatter-
Matthew:
I'm sorry. I don't fuck with nickels. I'm like quarters and up.
Molly:
I then-
Matthew:
I'm a fancy guy.
Molly:
... cut the carrot lengthwise in half, and then sometimes again into quarters, and then we go into triangles. In any given soup that I make, you're going to find coins and triangles.
Matthew:
Oh, okay. I like that.
Molly:
Does that drive you extra crazy?
Matthew:
No, no, no. I like that. Because now I think what I was envisioning was coins cut on the diagonal. I don't know why. You didn't say that and it doesn't make any sense. But-
Molly:
Well, that's just the half moon.
Matthew:
But it would be half-moon more like if the carrot was halved length. Why are we talking so much about carrots?
Molly:
[crosstalk 00:35:29].
Matthew:
Carrots are the opposite of pepperoni.
Molly:
Let's get on with it. Matthew, what other toppings do you like with pepperoni? I'll tell you-
Matthew:
Please.
Molly:
... what I ... I really love ... I don't know if this counts as toppings, but Delancey makes a white pie that's got ricotta, mozzarella and granola on it, and no tomato sauce. I love a white pie with pepperoni.
Matthew:
I think that counts. I see as like the removal of toppings.
Molly:
Sure. Pepperoni is also so nice with onion.
Matthew:
Anti toppings. Oh yes. Pepperoni and onion, perfect.
Molly:
Pepperoni and mushroom. Wouldn't say no to that. I am starving, Matthew.
Matthew:
Oh yeah. Me too. We keep [inaudible 00:36:08]. I've been getting up early and starting work at 7:30 and I had an English muffin with Kerrygold Salted Irish Butter, which really sounded like they paid me to say that, but they did not. But then now it's like 10:50. I'm starving. I want pizza.
Molly:
We live on opposite ends of town, I wonder if we could get Pagliacci to deliver half a pizza to me and then drive the other half to you.
Matthew:
I think we could. I think they would probably charge us a surcharge of like $40 extra, but yes.
Molly:
Okay, great. Let's do it.
Matthew:
I'm glad you mentioned Pagliacci, local Seattle Pizza Chain because when they make their pepperoni pizza, they arrange the pepperoni so that when they slice the pizza, they don't slice through any pepperonis.
Molly:
That is beautiful.
Matthew:
Isn't it?
Molly:
Yes.
Matthew:
I love that. That's how they show you care. Although I also like the look of a pepperoni that's been sliced through.
Molly:
But how do you feel when the pepperoni slides and takes some of the cheese with it?
Matthew:
Slides off?
Molly:
Slides off or slides over to the next slice?
Matthew:
I don't like that. I always have a bit of a pang of fear when I'm slicing a pizza. How much am I going to move the toppings around while slicing?
Molly:
It's-
Matthew:
Should I get one of those big ass pizza slicing knives? Would that help?
Molly:
No. No.
Matthew:
I don't think so.
Molly:
No.
Matthew:
Oh, I love
Molly:
Pepperoni sticks.
Matthew:
Yes, pepperoni sticks. I think the one I will buy if I see it and I want a pepperoni stick is the Oberto Cocktail Pep. Partly because it's local, it tastes good, and I like saying cocktail pep.
Molly:
Cocktail pep sounds like something we should all be saying.
Matthew:
When I eat one, it gives me pep.
Molly:
What kind of beverage would you have with the cocktail pep?
Matthew:
Oh, what cocktail?
Molly:
Yeah, it has to be a cocktail, because it's called a cocktail pep. You can't have a beer with it [crosstalk 00:37:59]-
Matthew:
Or is it a cocktail pep because it's used to garnish a cocktail as a stirring stick?
Molly:
Don't second guess me.
Matthew:
Okay, sorry.
Molly:
It has to be a cocktail.
Matthew:
It has to be a cocktail. Harvey Wallbanger.
Molly:
What the fuck is that? I don't even remember.
Matthew:
Me neither. It just came to mind.
Molly:
Doesn't that have orange juice in it or something?
Matthew:
I think so. I'm sure it would be terrible with a pepperoni stick. Is it something like a Screwdriver?
Molly:
Oh, maybe I'm confusing a Screwdriver and a Wallbanger.
Matthew:
I'm looking it up. Could you go to The Toolbox and bring me a Wallbanger?
Molly:
It's a hammer, man.
Matthew:
Harvey Wallbanger cocktail recipe. Modern classic, it combines a Screwdriver with the Italian liquor Galliano. Vodka, Galliano, L'Autentico and orange juice, garnished with an orange slice and a maraschino cherry. What is Galliano? Who knows?
Molly:
You know what? I'm going to say that there is no cocktail that sounds more vomitous with a cocktail pep-
Matthew:
With a cocktail pep?
Molly:
... than a Harvey Wallbanger. It just sounds like vomit waiting to happen.
Matthew:
I came up with the worst possible answer to that question, and I'm proud of myself.
Molly:
What about some ... I think you couldn't go wrong with a martini. I don't really like martinis-
Matthew:
I don't like martinis, so you could go wrong.
Molly:
I keep hoping that maybe I'll come around to martinis, because I like all the things that are in martinis.
Matthew:
I don't like-
Molly:
I like gin, I like vermouth, I like olives.
Matthew:
I think I would like a martini fine if you didn't put an olive in it.
Molly:
I don't know. Anyway, what about something like an Old Pal?
Matthew:
Remind me again what that is.
Molly:
An Old Pal-
Matthew:
I know it's the drink that you order at Bbar Victoria.
Molly:
It's like a version of a Negroni, but different. Instead of having gin, it has rye whiskey. Instead of sweet vermouth, it has dry vermouth-
Matthew:
That sounds great with a pepperoni stick.
Molly:
... and Campari. It's a bit dryer. It's quite a bit drier than a Negroni, but also a little less viscous. A Negroni I think was having a real viscosity from the Campari and the sweet vermouth.
Matthew:
My answer is a Palbanger, which is a cocktail consisting of half Old Parr and half the Harvey Wallbanger-
Molly:
Are you going to-
Matthew:
... served in a plastic sippy cup.
Molly:
And does it scream?
Matthew:
It [crosstalk 00:40:25]-
Molly:
... a Palbanger, banging.
Matthew:
It screams your pal when they're being banged.
Molly:
All right. You can-
Matthew:
I think this episode is over.
Molly:
You can no longer find us on Facebook, because we left. Because Facebook is [crosstalk 00:40:42]-
Matthew:
And will that actually have happened by the time you hear this episode?
Molly:
I hope so.
Matthew:
Maybe.
Molly:
I hope so. Everybody join us. Let's leave Facebook.
Matthew:
Yes. And there might be a new place that you can find, we'll keep you posted on that.
Molly:
We're figuring it out.
Matthew:
Yap. Everyone is just figuring stuff out.
Molly:
True.
Matthew:
But you can find us on the web. It's spilled.podcast.com. If you look at the show notes in your podcast player, that's where we link to recipes and other stuff. We've probably linked to the product page for Hormel Cup N' Crisp. We'll definitely link to that Lynne Rossetto Kasper chicken and spinach meatball recipe if we can find it online, I think we can.
Molly:
Maybe we could link to the Oberto Cocktail Pep.
Matthew:
Maybe we can link to cocktail pep.
Molly:
Yeah.
Matthew:
You can probably order like a case of cocktail pep. Oh, and we're going to-
Molly:
Oh, we're going to look into the old pepperoni roll.
Matthew:
We're going to look into a pepperoni roll, and it will look back at you. Our producer is Abby Cerquitella. I don't know. I think that's everything.
Molly:
I think that's everything.
Matthew:
I think now is the part we've reached the climax of the show where we scream. [inaudible 00:41:43].
Molly:
[inaudible 00:41:44]. I'm Molly Wizenberg.
Matthew:
And I am Matthew Amster-Burton.
Molly:
I'm eating apples. Let's talk about pepperoni.