Embedded Files
Molly:
I'm Molly.
Matthew:
I'm Matthew.
Molly:
This is Spilled Milk, the show where we cook something delicious, eat it all, and you can't have any.
Matthew:
Today we're talking about Negronis.
Molly:
Yay. I also want to point out, this episode is airing if you're listening to it on air day. Air day? Is that a thing?
Matthew:
Yeah. It's air day, National Air Day, October 1st.
Molly:
Well, after all the wildfire smoke we've been having on the West Coast, I really look forward to National Air Day.
Matthew:
It's not National Clean Air day necessarily. It's just a day to think about air and how we fucked it up.
Molly:
Well, anyway, if you are listening to this on the day the show comes out, that's October 1st, guess what? You, like us, missed Negroni Week?
Matthew:
Well, I mean we don't know that our listeners missed it. Possibly all of our-
Molly:
Oh.
Matthew:
Listeners were drinking a Negroni day from September 14th through 20th.
Molly:
Oh God. That's right. It's true. I guess not everybody is doing the exact same thing we're doing all the time.
Matthew:
I don't know. Our listeners, maybe they follow us on social media. We're influencers and we've influenced them to be just like us. What do you think are the top three things that we do, that our listeners do along with us?
Molly:
I posted some pictures of Negronis over the years. Maybe our listeners really are drinking Negronis.
Matthew:
Negronis over the years like the movie Boyhood, where you can see the Negroni getting older?
Molly:
Yeah.
Matthew:
I think listeners really appreciate the way I change positions on the couch once in a while so I don't get a cramp and they're probably doing that along with me. It's my own little exercise regime.
Molly:
Speaking of what we're doing and our listeners may be keeping an eye on it, I remember way back in the early days of blogging when the blog Chocolate & Zucchini was the biggest food blog out there, run by the lovely and extremely, God, prolific Clotilde Dusoulier. Anyway, I remember she created a forum on her site, a little auxiliary place where her readers could go and chat amongst themselves. This seemed really revolutionary at the time. I remember Brandon and I going over and looking at the forum one day and there was a whole thread that was just like, “What do you think Clotilde is doing right now?”
Matthew:
Oh yeah. If you live in France, just everything you do is automatically interesting, right?
Molly:
I guess that's true. Brandon and I were like, “Oh my God. Wait. Do people just come to this forum to talk about what they think Clotilde is doing right now? The Internet is so weird.”
Matthew:
Oh, if there was a thread, we don't have a forum because who would participate? We have a Facebook page, but if there's a thread about like, “What do you think Matthew and Molly are doing right now?” It would be so boring.
Molly:
Hey. I have a guess. I think I'm sitting in my closet recording this podcast and I think you're sitting in your bedroom.
Matthew:
Yep. That's correct.
Molly:
Whoo.
Matthew:
I've also been spending a lot of time in my storage room, practicing singing because it's the only place I can go that doesn't enrage the rest of the family. Basically, I've been screaming in my closet for an hour a day, which is very therapeutic. I highly recommend it.
Molly:
Oh, okay. Great. Hot tips, hot mental health tips from Matthew.
Matthew:
I mean it's really true. Just spending even half an hour a day sometimes, just singing it at a high volume, well or not well, it just makes me feel so much better.
Molly:
I love when you send me voice recordings of yourself.
Matthew:
Well, I should have something new in the next couple of days.
Molly:
Okay, great because I seriously love it.
Matthew:
Listeners, you can't hear any.
Molly:
All right. Well, back to the show. All right. Today we're talking about Negronis.
Matthew:
That's a cocktail, right?
Molly:
It is a cocktail.
Matthew:
Again, this is an episode I was a little nervous about because I think I've now had a Negroni twice in my life, but the most recent time was Saturday night.
Molly:
Oh, well, cool. Well, hold on. Before we come up to the present, Matthew, let's go down memory lane. What's on your Negroni memory lane?
Matthew:
Oh. We were going to let people know that transcripts of the show are now available. It's spilledmilkpodcast.com/transcripts.
Molly:
That's right. that's very-
Matthew:
Read all about us. My Negroni memory lane. I think I probably first heard about it from you because I know this is one of your favorite cocktails and you've been drinking them for a while. I think we did a classic cocktails episode. We recorded it at Producer Abby's house, about six years ago.
Molly:
Has it been that long?
Matthew:
Yeah. I believe you made a Negroni and that was definitely the first time I had one and possibly also the first time I had heard of it. That's my memory lane.
Molly:
Oh, cool, man.
Matthew:
We've been doing the show long enough that probably most of my memory lane coincides with the time we've been doing the show.
Molly:
That makes sense. I mean we've been doing the show for basically a quarter of our lifetimes.
Matthew:
Well, that's true.
Molly:
Anyway, I first heard of the Negroni from my mother, Toni Wizenberg.
Matthew:
Oh. Toni Negroni, they called her.
Molly:
I should have called her up and asked her where she first had a Negroni.
Matthew:
I thought you were going to say, “I should have called her Toni Negroni when I was growing up.”
Molly:
No.
Matthew:
What a missed opportunity. If you had a time machine and you could just use it one time-
Molly:
That's what I would go back to do.
Matthew:
You'd use it to go back 27 years and call your mom Toni Negroni and then come back to the present.
Molly:
Here's the good news though. I can start doing it now. In fact-
Matthew:
Oh, that is true. It's never too late.
Molly:
I am having dinner with my mother tonight, so I could call her Toni Negroni.
Matthew:
We're recording another episode tomorrow. I want you to let me know tomorrow how that went and let everyone know.
Molly:
My mom, I don't know what kind of high life she was living, but at a certain point, Toni Wizenberg decided that she was going to have a winter drink and a summer drink. When she would go out to a restaurant, there was a cocktail that she was going to order in the winter and a cocktail she was going to order in the summer.
Matthew:
That is so smart because as we discussed on the Classic Cocktail episode, and I feel like I've gotten a little better at this, but not much better, I never know what cocktail to order if there isn't a menu. Cocktails are seasonal, so I don't want to order a mojito in December. I mean I guess it's okay.
Molly:
That's a good point.
Matthew:
Having a seasonal cocktail I think is so smart.
Molly:
Wow. I thought you were going to say it's so ridiculous.
Matthew:
No, not at all. I think it's brilliant.
Molly:
Well, I think I'm a real classic cocktails person. I don't know. To me, they're seasonless. I don't really get it.
Matthew:
Well, I think some of them are seasonal.
Molly:
Well, sure. I mean a mojito or something like that, or even a margarita feels like summer to me, but what I was going to say is I think, if I had to guess, that she made the Negroni her winter drink because it was dark in color. Not that it's made with any brown liquors, but I think people sometimes think of brown liquor as what you drink when it's cold outside, right?
Matthew:
Sure.
Molly:
The Negroni being this rusty red color and being bitter and very, very strong, I mean there's nothing about this drink that tiptoes around.
Matthew:
That's true.
Molly:
The thing is I can't remember what her summer cocktail was, but I think that it was clear. I think it was maybe a gin and tonic or something more light colored.
Matthew:
Tonight, when you have dinner with your mom, first of all, say, “Hey. Toni Negroni, I have a question for you.” Just slide it in there casually like that and see what happens. Then ask her what her summer cocktail was.
Molly:
I will. Great. I love the way you've just given me this script, as though I wouldn't have thought of it myself.
Matthew:
I'm someone who has sometimes coming up with conversation topics. You're welcome.
Molly:
Oh my gosh. I don't know if you remember this because it was so long ago, but back when you used to go on first dates, would you think of conversation topics ahead of time?
Matthew:
Oh yes, 100%.
Molly:
Oh, me too. Me too. I wonder if this is just something that only people who, who have anxiety or deal with anxiety do.
Matthew:
Just when you said, “First date, I started feeling anxious.”
Molly:
Anyway-
Matthew:
Just that feeling like, “I have to make a good first impression here and I have no idea how to do that.” Usually, I think I make a bad first impression.
Molly:
This, for me, carries over to meeting new people in general.
Matthew:
Oh yeah. Me too.
Molly:
I mean I've gotten way better at it. I don't come up with a list of questions anymore. I am a good enough conversationalist that I can just meet someone and enjoy myself, but in general, I am never going to be one of those people who you will ever hear say, “I love meeting new people.”
Matthew:
I do actually like meeting new people.
Molly:
Really?
Matthew:
I mean love is trying. Yes. We've talked about this before. I'm always the person who's trying to get us to meet up with listeners and stuff.
Molly:
Oh, that's true. I'm always like, “Matthew, why are you doing that? I don't like meeting new people.” it's not that I don't like it. It's a little hard for me.
Matthew:
Oh, it's hard for me too. I like meeting new people in a context where we know that we can fall back on talking about the thing that I do, which I know is terrible.
Molly:
Well, I think that's human nature. Humans are terrible.
Matthew:
I know in a context where it's not a Spilled Milk event, I understand it would be inappropriate to say, “Let's just talk about all the things I'm into.” Then I don't know what to do.
Molly:
I've had a number of really nice meetups with Spilled Milk listeners. Actually, people who I met professionally, because they listened to this podcast or read my work, are often some of my closest friends, so I don't know what my problem is.
Matthew:
No one knows.
Molly:
Great. Anyway, all right. My memory lane involves Toni Negroni and her winter drink. When I first started learning more about Negronis and enjoying them myself, I remember seeing them in the context of summer drinks in Italy. I think a lot of people think of the Negroni as a hot weather drink in Italy.
Matthew:
Well, I think of Campari as being summery just because of the color, I think.
Molly:
That's so interesting. I mean I think that Toni Negroni has so thoroughly gotten this idea in my head, that these colors are wintery colors.
Matthew:
Oh, Toni Negroni is running some sort of propaganda mill.
Molly:
Oh God. I can't think of anything that I enjoy more than sitting outside in the evening, on vacation, and drinking a Campari and soda or something. That would be done in warm weather.
Matthew:
I mean Italy, a lot of it is warm year-round, especially Southern Italy, right?
Molly:
That's true. All right.
Matthew:
I don't know what point I'm trying to make.
Molly:
Well, anyway, I think any of our listeners who are really familiar with Italian aperitivo culture will probably agree with me that the Negroni is not really a winter drink, anyway, but for me, it's my all-weather drink.
Matthew:
How long has that been the case?
Molly:
Oh my gosh. This has been the case for years. At first, when Toni Negroni first got into her habit of ordering Negronis, I thought they were disgusting. I thought they looked and sounded disgusting.
Matthew:
Wait. Did she have the nickname for years before she ever ordered her first Negroni? That would be odd.
Molly:
Anyway, I don't even remember exactly when it was. I think it's been in the last 10 years, that I have come to really love Negronis. My mother, I think was an early adopter. She loved them far before that.
Matthew:
That makes sense. I'm trying to think of other things that rhyme with cocktails or names of liquors so I can give myself a nickname. I haven't come up with anything yet, but I'll keep you posted.
Molly:
How about I tell everyone what a Negroni is, for those listeners who have been living under a rock for the last decade?
Matthew:
I mean I got to say even though, again, we covered it in episode six years ago, I had forgotten what was in it until I looked it up.
Molly:
Well, the Negroni, it comes from Italy. It's a popular Italian aperitivo, the Italian version of an aperitif which is a pre-meal drink. The idea being that Campari or bitter liquors open the stomach. A Negroni is made of equal parts, gin, red or sweet vermouth, and Campari, traditionally, equal parts. Then garnished either with an orange wheel or a half wheel or an orange peel.
Matthew:
Is this related in some way to a martini since it has gin and vermouth? Or are the proportions so different that it's not even relative?
Molly:
You are assuming that I drink martinis and make them, which I don't know.
Matthew:
No. I'm just assuming that you're a cocktail historian.
Molly:
I'm David Wondrich.
Matthew:
Yes. How about Ginny Martini?
Molly:
No. Matthew, my understanding is that I don't think the Negroni and the martini are related. For one thing, the martini has much less vermouth, relative to gin.
Matthew:
I did actually know that.
Molly:
Anyway, people like to mess with the proportions, but purists get pretty cranky if you call something a Negroni and it's not equal parts, gin, vermouth, and Campari.
Matthew:
Oh, that's easy though because usually, even when I make a very simple cocktail, I have to look up the recipe to make sure I'm getting the proportions right, but if it was one to one to one, even I could remember that.
Molly:
Well, this is part of why I think this is my … When I make a cocktail, which I do maybe one night a week, I try to always have around the stuff for Negronis. Nine times out of 10, I make a Negroni because I never have to look it up. The gin lives in my freezer and the Campari and vermouth are just there, and I know exactly what to do.
Matthew:
I feel that way about an old fashioned which is one of my favorites, which is whiskey and a little tiny bit of other stuff.
Molly:
A Negroni is stirred, not shaken, really never shaken. Wikipedia says that you build it over ice in an old fashioned or rocks glass, but in lots of places, especially these days, the bartender will ask if you want it on the rocks or up.
Matthew:
Do you have an overall feeling of whether you're a rocks or up person?
Molly:
I always thought that I was a rocks person, also because I hate the look of a lot of martini glasses. I think they look dumb, but I had these-
Matthew:
What about the ones where the stem of the glass is all squiggly though?
Molly:
I was going to say that is my least favorite type of martini glass.
Matthew:
You can serve it with a bendy straw.
Molly:
When I'm out in the world, I think that I would order a Negroni on the rocks, but when I'm at home, I have two of these little, very, very thin crystal etched … I think they're sherry glasses. I think that either Brandon bought them at a thrift store somewhere or my dad maybe bought them a long time ago. Anyway, they look like something that your grandmother would have. It's got a little stem, but it's much smaller than a martini glass and shorter. I love making myself Negronis at home with these, but I do find that when I drink anything up, I tend to get annoyed that it immediately starts warming up.
Matthew:
Of course.
Molly:
It doesn't stay ice cold, but then if you're Negronis on the rocks, then you get more ice melt into it than I necessarily want.
Matthew:
We should get some of those, what are those things, whiskey stones that keep your drink cold without diluting it. It's Father's Day gift type of thing.
Molly:
That sounds great. Well, I'll get you a tie clip and you get me that.
Matthew:
Oh yeah. I mean it is your birthday today, as we're recording.
Molly:
It is.
Matthew:
I did not get you whiskey stones.
Molly:
My birthday is not October 1st.
Matthew:
No.
Molly:
I feel like we should tell the listeners. I am a solid Virgo, September 14th.
Matthew:
If people wanted to get you a late birthday present, you wouldn't say no right?
Molly:
I would not say no. Oh, I never say no.
Matthew:
Something from Brookstone or the Hammacher Schlemmer catalog.
Molly:
Maybe people might want to get me those whiskey chunks.
Matthew:
We'll call them whiskey chunks.
Molly:
Oh my God. Matthew, did I tell you about baking cunks?
Matthew:
What did you just say?
Molly:
Have I not told you about this?
Matthew:
No.
Molly:
Oh my God. This is the best thing to happen in my household in the last month.
Matthew:
I like it already, I think.
Molly:
One day, June was not with us. I think it was a Sunday afternoon. Ash was at home, but Ash was about to leave to go to the grocery store. I was typing a grocery list into a text for them so they could look it up in the grocery store. I typed like Scharffenberger baking chunks, but it came out as baking cunks, C-U-N-K-S. Ash and I laughed so hard about it.
Matthew:
That's very funny.
Molly:
Then Ash was like, “Wouldn't it be funny if we called a grocery store and asked if they carry baking cunks?”
Matthew:
Did you prank call a grocery store?
Molly:
We had a good laugh about this. Then Ash actually on the phone and called a grocery store, I'm not going to say which one, and asked for baking cunks. Ash kept a straight face so well. Anyway, I have to tell you we've now told June about it.
Matthew:
Oh, great.
Molly:
She's prank called a grocery store, asking for baking cunks.
Matthew:
What.
Molly:
She was really good at it, totally kept a straight face, although she could spell aloud really fast. Inevitably, the call goes like this.
Matthew:
I don't know how I feel about this. I feel like grocery stores, they're going through enough without having to deal with you and your bullshit.
Molly:
I know. I'm really sorry. I think this makes me a terrible person, but it gave us so much joy anyway. Anyway-
Matthew:
I mean to be fair-
Molly:
The call usually goes like this.
Matthew:
It's not like this is malicious and the person at this store hung up and said, “Everyone, gather around. You got to hear the shit that just happened.”
Molly:
Inevitably, the call goes like this. Hi. I'm looking to see if you have a particular product. Then the person's like, “Okay.” You say, “I'm looking for baking cunks.” There's always a silence on the other end for a little while. Then they go, “I'm sorry. Baking what?” You go, “Baking cunks, C-U-N-K-S.” They always go, “Baking chunks?” You go, No. C-U-N-K-S.” The best part is that when June was doing it, she can spell it loud, really fast, but she spelled it wrong.
Matthew:
Oh no.
Molly:
She goes, “B-A-K-I-N-G C-U-N-C-S.”
Matthew:
That's close enough to a thing that doesn't exist.
Molly:
Anyway, it goes on and on and on. We had one grocery store refer us to another grocery store.
Matthew:
Oh, okay.
Molly:
I'll send you-
Matthew:
Like, “I need you to stop bothering me about this. Go bother Albertsons.”
Molly:
Anyway, Matthew, we made voice recordings of these.
Matthew:
You're the new Jerky Boys.
Molly:
We're terrible, but I have to say that in the midst of a horrible year, the discovery of baking cunks is one of the best things that happened to our household. No regrets. I'm sorry, listeners if you hate me after this, but we prank called grocery stores a couple of weekends in a row.
Matthew:
I think this is going to be a pretty polarizing event in the history of Spilled Milk. I am curious to hear what people think.
Molly:
I don't like putting myself out there this way, but anyway, I know that it wasn't the best decision we've ever made, but it was good for our mental health.
Matthew:
I understand. That seems fair. I just go in the closet and scream.
Molly:
Can I keep talking about Negronis now?
Matthew:
Yes, please.
Molly:
Negronis are the most successful drank to have ever come out of Italy, according to New York Times.
Matthew:
I didn't realize how popular they've become. You and Toni Negroni were really ahead of the curve on this.
Molly:
I mean let's give the credit to whom it's due and that's Toni Negroni. Anyway, according to The New York Times, in 2018, the Negroni was the second most called for cocktail worldwide, surpassed only by the old fashioned.
Matthew:
Called for is a funny way of putting that. I mean I know that that's probably a bartending industry term, but-
Molly:
What do you think is the most uncalled for worldwide?
Matthew:
One of those martinis with a slider on top or a Bloody Mary with a whole roast chicken. That's uncalled for.
Molly:
All right. Let's talk about the history of the Negroni. I started doing this research on Wikipedia, as usual, and then I thought, you know what? Even Wikipedia says, “This history is disputed.” I looked more widely at The New York Times, the website PUNCH, the great drinks website, PUNCH. I looked up David Wondrich stuff. Here's the thing. The history I'm about to share is disputed, but nobody seems to share what the competing history is. Anyway, it seems that the Negroni is a descendant of the Americano, not to be confused with caffè Americano.
Matthew:
I was just going to ask.
Molly:
An Americano in Italy is another aperitivo and it is made from equal parts sweet vermouth and Campari, and then a splash of soda water.
Matthew:
If you try to order the coffee drink, Americano in Italy, they just say, “We're not going to do that.”
Molly:
That's correct. Anyway, I think of an Americano as a lighter version of a Negroni. Well, it turns out that they are actually related, that the Negroni came out of the idea of the Americano. The most widely reported account of how this drink came to be is that in Florence, in 1919, at someplace called Café Casoni, there was this Count.
Matthew:
I didn't expect a Count to enter the story at this point.
Molly:
Count Negroni. I find this very confusing. Anyway, there was a Count whose last name was Negroni and he was at the Café Casoni in 1919. He asked the bartender-
Matthew:
He was sitting at the piano in the café, playing a harmonic minor scale and saying that they called him the Count because he loves to count things.
Molly:
Oh my God. Don't make me think of the skit I've already mentioned many times.
Matthew:
I know.
Molly:
Anyway, Count Negroni asked the bartender there, a man named Fosco Scarselli, to make-
Matthew:
Fosco?
Molly:
Isn't that great?
Matthew:
Yeah.
Molly:
This episode is really inspiring. Anyway, Count Negroni asked the bartender to make his Americano stronger by using gin instead of soda water. Scarselli also swapped the usual Americano garnish, which would be lemon, for an orange garnish. Anyway, people love to argue about this stuff. Some say that Negroni actually invented it in Senegal, in the mid-1850s. Sorry. There's a typo on the agenda here. Not 1950s, 1850s.
Matthew:
Oh, wow.
Molly:
Other people say it was somebody else's invention entirely. Our man, David Wondrich, has done some research into Count Negroni, and apparently, this will shock everyone, his status as an actual Count is dubious.
Matthew:
David Wondrich's status isn't an actual Count?
Molly:
No. David Wondrich is for sure a Count.
Matthew:
Count Wondrich. I feel like of all the titles of nobility that you could have, Count is way up there. I feel like there's a whole personality and style that goes along with Count, whereas if you're just a lord or a Duke or something.
Molly:
Even being a Duke, it seems like the younger, less dignified title compared to Count. If you're a Count-
Matthew:
Count I think is pretty up there in terms of rank.
Molly:
Huh?
Matthew:
I think.
Molly:
I don't know, but you'll see, Matthew, on the second page of the agenda, I cut and pasted a picture of Count Negroni.
Matthew:
Let's just turn this. Whoa.
Molly:
General Pascal-Olivier de Negroni, 1829 to, wait a minute, 1913. Wait a minute. This guy … Hold on. I think there were multiple Counts. Here's part of what I think.
Matthew:
No. He died in 1913. Then he went into a bar in 1919 and invented a new drink.
Molly:
This is all coming together for me. I think that part of the dispute is that there were historically multiple Count Negronis or something and this one was in Senegal in the 1850s. People say that he ordered it there, but then there were some other Count Negroni who was alive in 1919, who ordered it in Florence.
Matthew:
It's probably a hereditary title.
Molly:
Yes.
Matthew:
Also, why was his name French and Italian?
Molly:
Well, I think that this picture in Wikipedia was probably out of some sort of French publication, which is why it's in French.
Matthew:
All right.
Molly:
Do you think that Toni Negroni is a title that can be inherited?
Matthew:
I mean, I think he would have to talk to Toni Negroni about that, which is convenient since you're having dinner with her tonight.
Molly:
Anyway, Negronis, there are so many variations on them now.
Matthew:
What about Mari Campari?
Molly:
That's pretty nice.
Matthew:
Pretty good, right?
Molly:
Yeah. That's pretty good. What about-
Matthew:
What's the other ingredient? I already forgot.
Molly:
Vermouth.
Matthew:
I don't think there's a name that sounds like that.
Molly:
This is tough.
Matthew:
I'll keep thinking about it.
Molly:
Anyway, most people say that the Negroni must be equal parts of these three ingredients, but a lot of people-
Matthew:
Sorry. I have to interrupt. I just thought of what my new name is going to be, Jack Sazerac.
Molly:
Oh God. That is so-
Matthew:
Pretty good, right?
Molly:
Manly. That is rippling with testosterone.
Matthew:
I don't know what goes into a Sazerac, but I know it's a cocktail. It's probably good. I'm going to be Jack Sazerac from now on.
Molly:
I'm pretty sure it has some absinthe.
Matthew:
Yes. I can use that as an excuse for the bad things that I do after drinking.
Molly:
Doesn't it? Here. Look it up.
Matthew:
Sazerac. Rye whiskey and cognac, absinthe, sugar cube, Peychaud's bitters. Oh, rye was before cognac.
Molly:
Doesn't that sound great?
Matthew:
That doesn't seem like they would be substitutes for each other, but okay. That sounds good, yeah.
Molly:
That sounds great. I am so excited about your new persona, Jack Sazerac.
Matthew:
Jack Sazerac, international bad boy.
Molly:
What should I be? We've got Toni Negroni and Jack Sazerac.
Matthew:
We'll figure it out by the end of the episode.
Molly:
A lot of bartenders recommend upping the amount of gin in your Negroni, with the idea being that it makes it a little bit lighter tasting because Campari, even when you pour it out of the bottle, it's got a real viscosity to it. It's very bitter and also very sweet.
Matthew:
I've never poured Campari out of a bottle, but I believe you.
Molly:
It is not entirely unlike cough syrup. It's not that thick. Don't get me wrong. It's not that thick, but it has that kind of intensity of flavor and intensity of sweetness and bitterness.
Matthew:
There's probably a Negroni variation made with Robitussin instead of Campari.
Molly:
Anyway, some bartenders even use up to three parts gin, which to me seems like a whole other thing.
Matthew:
Three parts gin, one part Campari, one part the other thing, I forgot, vermouth?
Molly:
Yeah. Anyway, there are many, many, many Negroni variations and I think we should run through a few of them because I think you'll be familiar with some of them. Of course, there's the Americano. You could say that the Negroni is a variation of the Americano and vice versa. That again is equal parts Campari and sweet vermouth, with a splash of soda. Then, Matthew, have you had this, a boulevardier?
Matthew:
I think I have had that.
Molly:
This is made with whiskey instead of-
Matthew:
I don't think I knew it was related.
Molly:
Then, Matthew, as you know, I love an Old Pal.
Matthew:
Did we have that on the Classic Cocktail episode? I feel like I've had this with you, somewhere.
Molly:
Oh, you've had an Old Pal with me when we have been in Tokyo together.
Matthew:
Oh, nice.
Molly:
We go to Bar Victoria. I always order an Old Pal at Bar Victoria because, here's the thing, it's made with rye whiskey instead of gin and dry vermouth instead of sweet. I think I got into ordering it at Bar Victoria because they have so many whiskeys there.
Matthew:
That sounds intensely dry to me.
Molly:
Oh my God. It's so good. I love it. In fact, maybe if the Negroni is going to be my summer, maybe the Old Pal is my-
Matthew:
I like that.
Molly:
Winter drink, with the rye and the vermouth.
Matthew:
I'm just thinking of what rhymes with Old Pal.
Molly:
Oh, I love an Old Pal so much. Anyway, hold on. I'm going to move on. Then there's the Negroni Sbagliato which basically means the wrong or mistaken Negroni.
Matthew:
Oh, I like that.
Molly:
You might like this one. This uses sparkling white wine or Prosecco instead of the gin.
Matthew:
Oh, that sounds good.
Molly:
I don't know how I feel about this version. There is a version that uses tequila instead of gin and that's called the Agavoni or the Tegroni.
Matthew:
These are bad names, but it may be tasty.
Molly:
These are terrible. Then there's the Dutch Negroni, which uses geneva instead of gin.
Matthew:
I've heard of geneva, but I didn't know it was pronounced that way.
Molly:
I'm not-
Matthew:
How is it different from gin?
Molly:
Maybe it's geneva.
Matthew:
That's what I was thinking.
Molly:
Geneva.
Matthew:
Geneva is what you call Geneva if you're from Boston.
Molly:
I think you're right. I don't know. I only used to own a bar, but let's be clear. I was never anywhere remotely close to being a bartender. I will not claim to know how exactly it is different from gin, but it is, different botanicals and something else.
Matthew:
Good answer. Different botanicals.
Molly:
Then, of course, there's the white Negroni, which is gin, Lillet blanc, and Suze.
Matthew:
Wait. Could your name just be Suze? I don't know what that is.
Molly:
I believe Suze is French. I think it's a French amaro. Hang on. Let me look it up.
Matthew:
That seems like could like your burlesque name, Suze, the French amaro because amaro sounds like amore. I like that.
Molly:
Suze, it's a French aperitif, a French, slightly bitter aperitif made from gentian root. Anyway, that totally makes sense, being the replacement for a Campari here, a different kind of bitter liquor. Anyway, Matthew, how do you take your Negroni, all two of them?
Matthew:
As I mentioned, I had a Negroni Saturday night, I know everyone's very proud of me, and it was on the rocks.
Molly:
What did you think?
Matthew:
I liked it. Let's see. We drank it while watching a Netflix movie, Love, Guaranteed, a romantic comedy starring Damon Wayans Jr. and, She's All That, I forgot her name, Rachael something, I think. A great movie. I highly recommended probably. I mean it probably should win Best Picture at this point. Everything added up perfectly with this movie. The plot made total sense. The Negroni was delicious and I drank the whole thing.
Molly:
Amazing. Will you talk about how you purchased this Negroni, how you made this happen?
Matthew:
I was like, “I'm going to put in a grocery order and get the stuff I need to make a Negroni at home.” Then I looked and saw that it was made from three liquors, none of which I had in the house, so I was like, “Nope. I'm not going to do that.” Then Producer Abby said, “Hey. If you go to Due', an Italian restaurant on Broadway, you can order online.” They have pre-bottled cocktails, including a Negroni. It was made by Straightaway Cocktails in Portland. It comes in this nice little bottle of three servings and they give you three little pieces of candied orange peel along with that. I threw one of those into my cocktail, even though I know it's probably supposed to be just an un-candied twist of orange. It was delicious. For this kind of cocktail, it doesn't have any fresh citrus juice or anything. There's no reason that it would suffer by being bottled and it didn't. It was great.
Molly:
During the pandemic, well, Essex and Delancey have been takeout only. Essex has been a bottle shop and they've been selling pre-batched cocktails little Mason jars.
Matthew:
Oh, pre-batched. That's what I should have said.
Molly:
Yes. A Negroni, a boulevardier, all these things, there's no reason not to pre-batch them. That's pretty sweet because then you can just have it hanging out in your fridge.
Matthew:
Exactly. It was three servings. There's still one left.
Molly:
What a feeling. You are a rich man today, Matthew.
Matthew:
Exactly. We let this breeze by. What did you think of the nickname Suze, the French amaro? I like it.
Molly:
I don't think it's very catchy.
Matthew:
Because it doesn't rhyme?
Molly:
I also think that if you just say Suze, people will just assume my name is Suzanne because we are talking about me, right? I'm Suze, the French amaro?
Matthew:
You're Suze, the French amaro. Have you ever been to a burlesque show? I haven't, but it seems like it would be fun.
Molly:
I have not been to one. No.
Matthew:
I that ever happens again, let's go.
Molly:
Okay, cool. The other thing that makes me a little hesitant on this nickname you're trying to give me is that Suze, the French amaro, is spelled S-U-Z-E and that's also how Suze Orman spells her first name.
Matthew:
Oh, that's true.
Molly:
I feel like people might read it and think it's Suze, the French amaro tomorrow, which then is just … Everything is wrong with that.
Matthew:
Then they would ask you for financial advice and you could really build a trust relationship.
Molly:
That sounds great. What was that little laugh you did?
Matthew:
I don't know. It felt weird when it was happening. That's my-
Molly:
That's very-
Matthew:
That's just how Jack Sazerac laughs. you don't make fun of Jack Sazerac's mannerisms.
Molly:
All right. Anyway, wait, Matthew, I'm going to just take this next part of the agenda because-
Matthew:
What if you were Moni Negroni?
Molly:
How gross.
Matthew:
Joni like Joni Mitchell. Joni Negroni.
Molly:
Joni Negroni. I'll be that.
Matthew:
I like that.
Molly:
That's cool. Can we just get on with this?
Matthew:
Yeah. I mean a little bit ago, it seemed like it was really important to you to come up with a nickname as good as Jack Sazerac, which obviously isn't going to happen, but we should at least try.
Molly:
All right. As previously noted, I make these at home. I think that if you're making a Negroni, it's important to just go with a London dry gin, none of these fancy-ass cucumber scented gins. I don't think you need a Tanqueray 10 or a Hendrick's situation.
Matthew:
I don't know what any of these things are, but I believe you.
Molly:
Well, both of these have been on the market for a long time now, but they're both particularly floral or particularly complex gins.
Matthew:
Do you think a Trader Joe's brand gin would be okay for this?
Molly:
I don't know if I ever recommend buying store-brand alcohols.
Matthew:
That's fair.
Molly:
Anyway, I would buy something that is just your basic London dry gin like Bombay, the original Bombay, or the original Tanqueray maybe. Vermouth, many just recommend Cinzano Rosso or a Martini Rosso. Both of these are really easy to find. Neither is too expensive. A lot of people, especially if you go to bonappetit.com or whatever, they get all up in-
Matthew:
I don't think anybody goes there anymore.
Molly:
Carpano Antica and stuff like that.
Matthew:
I have heard of Carpano Antica.
Molly:
Carpano Antica is delicious. That said, I think if you use Carpano Antica in a Negroni, to me, it doesn't taste like I expect just a straight-up Negroni to taste because Carpano Antica is really its own thing and tastes very different from a sweet vermouth, just plain and simple. Do you like these complex tasting notes that I'm giving?
Matthew:
I do.
Molly:
Very different.
Matthew:
I was waiting for you to talk about the vermouth that you have been using lately.
Molly:
Oh, so I've been using, Matthew, I spent a long time Googling this, it's a type of vermouth called angularly. I bought it through Essex because it's what they've been using as a sweet vermouth in cocktails that use clear liquor.
Matthew:
Is it Italian? If it's Italian, I assume it would be-
Molly:
It is.
Matthew:
Angolare.
Molly:
Angolare. I think you're right. It is Italian.
Matthew:
Could your name be Jerry Angolare? That's why I was waiting for you to say it.
Molly:
Oh, great. Yes. That will be my name. Thank you, Matthew. Anyway, I mean basically, the gin should give the structure of this thing. Then the Campari is this intensely sweet and bitter flavor. Then the vermouth has this, sometimes even, smoky wineniness. Anyway, I think this is a perfect drink.
Matthew:
I'm not really sure what I can say about the flavor of the drink, but I am definitely a sweet and fruity cocktail kind of person, but I did enjoy this very much and finished it while watching the best movie, Love, Guaranteed.
Molly:
You tend to be a real lightweight. Did this thing just hit you so hard?
Matthew:
I mean I definitely went to bed afterwards, but it was already 9:20 PM.
Molly:
Oh, okay. We should point out to the listener that you also ate before having your Negroni.
Matthew:
What's the opposite? Oh, a digestif. I had it as a digestif, digestivo.
Molly:
Yes. Exactly.
Matthew:
Is that what it might be in Italian?
Molly:
Yes, but it didn't open your stomach and cause you to vomit or anything?
Matthew:
No. That was another thing I enjoyed about it. What about the nickname Stevo Digestivo?
Molly:
That seems like it'd be from the 80s.
Matthew:
It does.
Molly:
Stevo.
Matthew:
Steve-O from Jackass in the 90s, maybe.
Molly:
Oh, I don't remember that. Matthew, hold on. If you were going to have a snack with your Negroni, imagine that-
Matthew:
I did.
Molly:
Well, what did you have?
Matthew:
I had Cool Ranch Doritos. It was great. It was perfect pairing.
Molly:
How was that? Yeah?
Matthew:
Yeah. Cool Ranch Doritos are very salty and a tiny bit sweet and very tangy.
Molly:
Oh God.
Matthew:
That paired really well with the Negroni.
Molly:
Oh, nice. I would not have thought of that. Oh, I like that.
Matthew:
It was delightful.
Molly:
Well, I imagine that if we were drinking Negronis, sitting out on a Piatsa, at a café or something-
Matthew:
Oh yeah. I can't wait to get back to our usual Piatsa habit.
Molly:
Me too. I imagine that we would be given a little dish of salted peanuts, a little flat bottom dish, almost looks like an ashtray, but it's assaulted peanut dish. I picture that. I also totally imagined being served just plain potato chips, just a little pile of plain potato chips.
Matthew:
Are these bar snacks you would find in Italy?
Molly:
Yes. Absolutely. At home, I think either of these is welcome or maybe a really delicious meaty olive, maybe a Castelvetrano olive or something like that. I know that I've mentioned before on the show Jessica Batillana's book, Repertoire. It's a cookbook, Anyway, I love that in sot of the starters section of that book, one of the ‘recipes' Jessica gives is for a Negroni with potato chips, which I think is about as perfect a starter as one could have to a meal. I just wanted to say that.
Matthew:
I wish I could reach my arm out right now to put potato chips on the shopping list because like a bag of original Lay's is sounding-
Molly:
Yes.
Matthew:
Real good right now.
Molly:
I think that would be perfect within a Negroni. Yes.
Matthew:
As I mentioned, I have one more Negroni in the house.
Molly:
Oh, I'm so excited for you.
Matthew:
It's a plan. It's a date. Me, a bag of chips, and the last Negroni.
Molly:
You could go hang out in your closet and scream a lot. What could be better than a big swirling combination?
Matthew:
Exactly.
Molly:
You know, what is a really big swirling combination? A tornado.
Matthew:
It is. Did you ever see the movie Twister?
Molly:
Oh God. No. Are you kidding? I grew up with tornadoes. I would never willingly watch a movie about them.
Matthew:
That's interesting. That's a good point. My upbringing was too sheltered and so I was able to enjoy all kinds of movies like Twister and Love, Guaranteed.
Molly:
I had so many tornado fears and worries as a child that I have never sought tornado-related entertainment.
Matthew:
Rachael Leigh Cook. That's the star of She's All That and Love, Guaranteed. Sorry. I didn't pause to hear your childhood fears.
Molly:
Oh, well, they were just tornadoes, period.
Matthew:
I mean I did hear you.
Molly:
That was all I was afraid of.
Matthew:
I just breezed onto the next thing.
Molly:
Oh, great.
Matthew:
I've been saying, “Breeze” a lot in this episode. A tornado is the opposite of a breeze.
Molly:
That's true. Great.
Matthew:
In the movie, Love, Guaranteed, the premise of the movie is that Damon Wayans is suing a dating website. This takes place in Seattle.
Molly:
Why are we talking so much about this movie?
Matthew:
Remember how you have spent 80 minutes on recent episodes talking about Animal Crossing? This is my Animal Crossing.
Molly:
Oh no.
Matthew:
This is our new segment. Love, Guaranteed, guaranteed because it's guaranteed that I'm going to keep bringing up this dumb movie.
Molly:
Oh God.
Matthew:
The premise is that he is suing a dating website because they have a guarantee that if you don't find love within the time you go on 1,000 dates set up through this agency … Within 1,000 dates, they guarantee you'll find love. He's suing them for a million dollars, but then he falls in love with his lawyer. Is that going to screw up the case?
Molly:
Yes.
Matthew:
It is going to screw up the case because you should not date your lawyer, but this is a romantic comedy, so the rules are out the window. More on Love, Guaranteed next time.
Molly:
Great. I can't wait. I'm so excited. All right.
Matthew:
The movie is set in Seattle, but filmed in Vancouver and so there are all these overhead establishing shots of Seattle. Then as soon as they zoom in, if you've been to Seattle and Vancouver, you know immediately that it's a Vancouver street scene.
Molly:
Oh man, that must be really fun for you.
Matthew:
It was really fun. I made me feel super smug.
Molly:
This sounds like how I feel when I plant plants in Animal Crossing and then they become flowers. Then I get to pick them and sell them to Timmy or Tommy.
Matthew:
I'm sorry. This is the Love, Guaranteed, guaranteed segment. Animal Crossing has to stay in its own segment.
Molly:
Oh, okay. All right.
Matthew:
Which begins right now.
Molly:
I have to use the bathroom. Let's finish this.
Matthew:
All right. We have a podcast to recommend.
Molly:
We sure do.
Matthew:
If you like Spilled Milk, you're also going to enjoy The Four Top, which is a show that we were on once.
Molly:
We were. The Four Top, it's won a James Beard Award. It's won an ICP award.
Matthew:
How many awards has Spilled Milk won? None.
Molly:
Anyway, with every episode of The Four Top, the host, Katherine Cole, invites on three thought leaders. What are thought leaders?
Matthew:
Well, I mean us, obviously, since we were on the show.
Molly:
Anyway, Katherine Cole invites on three thought leaders for a fast-moving roundtable discussion of hot button topics in food and beverage.
Matthew:
You can listen to The Four Top right now at thefourtop.org or Spotify, iTunes, wherever you get your podcast.
Molly:
The Four Top. Savor the conversation.
Matthew:
You can find us at spilledmilkpodcast.com. As I mentioned, we now have transcripts. We're very proud of them. Facebook.com/spilledmilkpodcast, where you can tell us, what is your alcohol-themed nickname? Or not an alcohol-themed nickname, beverage-theme nickname. If you want to be Prune Juice Newton, you can have that, from us to you.
Molly:
For free.
Matthew:
Instagram, @spilledmilkpodcast. Our producer is Abby Cerquitella. Until next time, thank you for listening to Spilled Milk, the show that blows whiskey chunks. Can I recall back from too far in the past? Yes. Apparently, I can.
Molly:
I'm Molly Wizenberg.
Matthew:
I'm Matthew Amster-Burton.
Molly:
Anyway. All right. Abby, you can pick it back up now.
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