454: Kale Chips
Matthew:
I'm Matthew.
Molly:
And I'm Molly.
Matthew:
And this is Spilled Milk, the show where we cook something delicious, eat it all and you can't have any.
Molly:
Today, we are talking about kale chips.
Matthew:
Yep. You've been asking for it, we're going to do it. The hot new food all the kids are talking about, kale chips.
Molly:
Wow. You really pulled out your radio voice there.
Matthew:
Yeah. I applied for this job selling kale chips.
Molly:
Oh, okay.
Matthew:
In the kale chip marketing department and so I want to be sure I'm ready for that. Last night, we watched this online concert by Broadway star Sierra Boggess and she was talking about how when she auditioned for The Little Mermaid, she got the part in part because she had practiced skating around on Heelys, which she knew was going to be required for the part, and other people who tried out were just clumsy oafs.
Molly:
Wait a minute, are you serious that in the-
Matthew:
This is all true.
Molly:
In the Broadway version of Little Mermaid, they're wearing something sort of like Heelys?
Matthew:
Yes, for the underwater scenes to give it a fluid, underwater sort of feel, and I think they're literally Heelys brand Heelys.
Molly:
That's fantastic. How did we get here?
Matthew:
So where was I going with this? Oh. Oh, right.
Molly:
Oh.
Matthew:
In order for me to get the kale chips job, I need to live and breathe kale chips marketing between now and then, and so that's why I requested that we do this episode.
Molly:
Okay, great. All right, let's get right down to it. Matthew-
Matthew:
Who did request this episode?
Molly:
I don't know. Did someone request this?
Matthew:
I don't know.
Molly:
Or wait. Or was it just that you and I were recently talking about kale chip experiences?
Matthew:
We were.
Molly:
Are you experienced?
Matthew:
I am slightly experienced.
Molly:
Okay, well hold on.
Matthew:
That's a good answer to that question.
Molly:
Let's go down memory lane.
Matthew:
If Jimi Hendrix comes to you and asks, "Are you experienced?" I think [inaudible 00:01:54] to say is, "A little, I guess.Can you be more specific?"
Molly:
That's what the kids are supposed to say like 40 years ago.
Matthew:
While they're crunching on their kale chips, which all the kids love.
Molly:
Okay, Matthew.
Matthew:
Yes.
Molly:
Memory lane.
Matthew:
I remember when everyone was talking about kale chips for a while. I'm going to guess, not having really looked at the agenda because I knew you did look up some history, I feel like it was about five years ago and because I'm old, that means it was 16 years ago.
Molly:
This is not memory lane, Matthew, that you're heading down right now.
Matthew:
Oh, okay. All right.
Molly:
You're heading down history lane, which is adjacent to memory lane, but-
Matthew:
All right. I remember people were talking about... Yeah. That's true. It's easy to take a wrong turn and think you're going down memory lane and you're actually going down history lane.
Molly:
History lane, which has so many facts whereas memory lane, full of interpretation.
Matthew:
That's true, but I mean history, it's really... There's no undisputed facts in history. It's really all about who gets to tell the story, in my opinion.
Molly:
That's true. That's true. I think that it's all about power.
Matthew:
It's all about power relationships.
Molly:
Which is exactly what kale chips are all about. You take some power, you tear it into bite-sized pieces, coat it lightly with olive oil and... Go on.
Matthew:
And then you plug it in. I think I had kale chips a few times back when everyone was into kale chips, whenever that was, and I think I thought they were fine. And that brings us up to the present. Me, at least. How about you?
Molly:
As usual, I am the last one to eat things that everybody else is eating. I think that I've only eaten kale chips once and it was... Since we've been in lockdown, I made them here in my house, and I will talk about that soon, but that was the first time I've ever eaten them.
Matthew:
Oh, wow. Now, I think if we had asked... If we had put the question out to our listeners, they would have guessed that you had had kale chips many times.
Molly:
I do seem like that kind of person, don't I?
Matthew:
Right?
Molly:
I hate that about myself.
Matthew:
Yeah, but it's hard to shake.
Molly:
It really is. Well, so should I go down history lane now?
Matthew:
It's funny because you can talk about how much you love the Wendy's 4 for $4 every week and people will probably still think of you as a kale chips person deep down and it's just not accurate.
Molly:
Well, and the truth is, is I can't really ever get away from it because I think my voice also sounds like a kale chips voice.
Matthew:
I think you're right. I know exactly what you mean.
Molly:
Yeah, I mean as opposed to a Cheetos voice or a Dick's Drive-In voice like-
Matthew:
Well, a Cheetos voice is just the voice of Chester Cheetah, but I don't really remember what Chester Cheetah sounds like.
Molly:
Right. Me neither. Did he talk?
Matthew:
I'm not sure if he did. I think I also get him confused with MC Skat Kat from the Paula Abdul-
Molly:
Oh, is that from the Paula Abdul video?
Matthew:
... Opposites Attract video. Yes.
Molly:
Yeah, okay. No matter how many times I cite super cool pop culture stuff like Paula Abdul's Opposites Attract video, people are still going to think I'm just sitting around here driving a Volvo and eating kale chips.
Matthew:
Yep. No matter how often you say (singing). I don't remember what that was in opposition to when I... I guess Paula Abdul's line is, "I refrain from smoking."
Molly:
No, wait. Hold on. We need to work our way through the song now.
Matthew:
Okay.
Molly:
He's got the... No. She's got the money and he's always broke. I don't like cigarettes and I like to smoke.
Matthew:
Right. Thank you.
Molly:
There we go.
Matthew:
Well, was Paula Abdul's first big hit Straight Up?
Molly:
Yes.
Matthew:
Or was there one... Okay. I remember when that song dropped. That was formative.
Molly:
It was formative. I feel like I was in sixth grade or something, but I would have to look up the date. But then again, for some reason, I think the sixth grade becomes sort of like... There's a magnet in my mind to sixth grade-
Matthew:
Oh, wow.
Molly:
... and music because I know that that was also when Vanilla Ice had his big hit. Everybody in my middle school was into it.
Matthew:
So Straight Up came out in 1988.
Molly:
Shoot.
Matthew:
So I was-
Molly:
I would've been in fourth grade.
Matthew:
I was in eighth grade, maybe.
Molly:
No way. How old were you in eighth grade? 13 or 14?
Matthew:
13.
Molly:
Oh, I was 14.
Matthew:
I turned 14 right before ninth grade.
Molly:
So wait, you were four years ahead of me in school. I didn't realize that. Oh, wow.
Matthew:
Yeah. Does that change the way you think about me?
Molly:
It does. Wow.
Matthew:
Do I seem somehow wiser?
Molly:
Well, no longer... No. No. Full stop.
Matthew:
Well, no.
Molly:
I was going to say previously, I had kind of looked at you the way that when I was a freshman, I would look at the seniors.
Matthew:
Oh, but actually, I would've been a college freshman at that time.
Molly:
And now, you would've been a college freshman. So that changes everything.
Matthew:
You're the same age as my brothers. Almost exactly.
Molly:
I'm exactly three years younger than you, but you were-
Matthew:
Oh, wait.
Molly:
... four years ahead of me in school. I was born in 1978. You were born in '75.
Matthew:
Oh yeah, you're right. No, so you're not the same age as my brothers. So how did this happen?
Molly:
Your brothers are a year younger than me?
Matthew:
Yeah. My brothers were born in 1980.
Molly:
Well, I think that I was at the older end of the age spectrum in my classes.
Matthew:
Were you held back a couple of times?
Molly:
God, Matthew. Why do you have to bring it up? Matthew-
Matthew:
No, no, no.
Molly:
... just let me be the Volvo driving, kale chips eating person. Don't also out me for being held back. I wasn't held back, by the way.
Matthew:
Okay. I mean, it's okay. Second grade is hard.
Molly:
No, my birthday... Well, kind of like you. It seems like you would've been at the very young end and I was-
Matthew:
I was in the very young end. If I had been born like a week later, I would've been a year later.
Molly:
You and I are right... We are on two opposite sides of the school year cutoff.
Matthew:
Yep. This was an interesting conclusion.
Molly:
It was. Oh, by the way, happy belated birthday.
Matthew:
Oh, thanks.
Molly:
Oh wait, when is this episode airing? Oops, your birthday was-
Matthew:
This episode is airing September 10th.
Molly:
Your birthday was almost two weeks ago.
Matthew:
Yep, so now we're in college.
Molly:
We're heading into my birthday.
Matthew:
That's true. Happy early birthday.
Molly:
Thank you.
Matthew:
It's coming up soon.
Molly:
Thank you. Yep.
Matthew:
When you come by tomorrow to pick up your paycheck in a safely, socially distanced way, we might have a little something special for you.
Molly:
Really?
Matthew:
I mean, might.
Molly:
Oh, okay. Fine.
Matthew:
I better think of something quick. No, no. We do have something special for you.
Molly:
Oh my gosh. I don't know how I'm going to sleep tonight.
Matthew:
Special is a strong word, but I think you'll like it.
Molly:
Okay, cool. Great. Well, Matthew, can I finally go down history lane, for God's sake?
Matthew:
Yes, please do.
Molly:
Thank you. All right. As usual, I used the internet to do my research, everybody.
Matthew:
You didn't go into the card catalog this time?
Molly:
I did not. I did not consult microfiche, microfibers, micro anything.
Matthew:
Yeah, I used to consult microfibers.
Molly:
All right. I did a search for kale chips history.
Matthew:
That makes sense.
Molly:
Yep. One of the most authoritative sites I found was a blog, which I know blogs are not historical sources. I don't even know how to say what I'm trying to say, but...
Matthew:
But I mean, is a blog different from-
Molly:
Depends on who writes the blog. It depends on who writes the blog.
Matthew:
If Thomas Paine was around not today, but in 2002-
Molly:
What did he do again?
Matthew:
He wrote the pamphlet Common Sense, which was about the American Revolution. "It's a good idea," I think. But if he were around today... Not today, again. If he were around in like 2002, he would have put it on his blog.
Molly:
That's true, and that's how he would've disseminated the pamphlet.
Matthew:
That's how he would've disseminated the pamphlet, so I don't see how a blog is any less authoritative than a pamphlet.
Molly:
That's true. Okay, great. I'm glad we got through that. All right, so I found this blog called An American Food Historian by Sandy Oliver who's a resident of Maine, it seems. This blog post came out in 2010 and in it, she... Well, sort of like we are saying here in 2020, she kind of talks about how she just heard about kale chips and was sort of late to the boat. Anyway-
Matthew:
So for us, that boat has circumnavigated the globe multiple times by now.
Molly:
Exactly. This boat has been in a holding pattern right in Puget Sound, waiting for us to notice that it's there.
Matthew:
Oh, it's like the Kalakala?
Molly:
Yes. Well, wait. But that's a decommissioned ferry.
Matthew:
I mean, it was. I think it's now been destroyed.
Molly:
Oh, really? Did they blow it up like a whale carcass that gets beached?
Matthew:
No, because I would've remembered that.
Molly:
Okay. Seems like a missed opportunity for explosives, if you're into that.
Matthew:
While you're telling me about kale chip history lane, I'm going to look up what happened to the Kalakala.
Molly:
Great. I'm going to go ahead with this. All right. So Sandy Oliver of the blog An American Food Historian did a search online herself. This is like the Russian nesting doll of histories. The earliest mention that she could find online was from February of 2005 at food.com which... There was a recipe that was put up there that the person who posted it said it was from a website called radicalhealth.com.
Matthew:
That kind of makes sense.
Molly:
And then a quote from Sandy here: "Further exploration found the method attributed to the celebrity chef Dan Barber of Blue Hill fame." This does not totally surprise me. I don't know. No?
Matthew:
I kind of doubt... I don't want him to get credit for this, I guess is what I'm saying.
Molly:
Okay, okay. Fair enough. Anyway, so yeah, the recipe has been around at least since 2005. At least. May or may not have anything to do with a website called Radical Health, may or may not have anything to do with Dan Barber of Blue Hill. How's that?
Matthew:
That sounds good.
Molly:
Great.
Matthew:
That sounds authoritative.
Molly:
Perfect.
Matthew:
Wait, remember during memory lane when I went off memory lane and said that I thought kale chips probably originated like 16 years ago?
Molly:
Yeah.
Matthew:
I was pretty close, right?
Molly:
You were. You actually were.
Matthew:
I should start a blog.
Molly:
Go ahead and start writing that pamphlet. All right. The mentions online of kale chips become more frequent in 2009 and 2010. So I don't know. We could say that the real peak of their popularity was a decade ago. That seems about right for us.
Matthew:
Yeah, I think so.
Molly:
All right. Anyway, I looked up that recipe on food.com and interestingly enough, I expected it to be a basic template like kale, olive oil, salt. But, I was kind of surprised to find that this has, as a primary flavoring ingredient, apple cider vinegar. It seems like this is like salt and vinegar kale chips, is what this particular recipe was.
Matthew:
Well, which particular recipe?
Molly:
This one on food.com which our friend Sandy Oliver, who may or may not be an authoritative source, cites as one of the first published recipes for kale chips. Anyway, it uses a 1:3 ratio of apple cider vinegar to olive oil and it bakes at 350 which is... Remember that number. We'll be returning to it. What I really loved is that the comments, I don't really know how they were organized because they were out of date order on this recipe, but the first comment that appeared on my version of this web page said, "We don't like kale, but this is okay."
Matthew:
Nice. I think that really sums it up.
Molly:
It was left by someone named cuppycakes.
Matthew:
Good work, cuppycakes, and way to credit the source.
Molly:
Wait, can I go on?
Matthew:
Can I ask something? Well, you said 350 is going to come up again because I want to talk about that temperature a little bit.
Molly:
Well, but can we come back?
Matthew:
Yeah, of course.
Molly:
Okay. A lot of our comedy on this show is based on being late to trends, apparently.
Matthew:
Oh, yeah.
Molly:
But the website Leite's Culinaria is as late as we were, Matthew. We've got some company here in the late, late box. The late...
Matthew:
The late, late box, in this case.
Molly:
Where do late people go? To hell?
Matthew:
I mean, it depends in what sense because if you're late in the sense of my late uncle, you go to the cemetery.
Molly:
Oh. No, I was meaning more like late to class. Do you have to go to the office or something and wait?
Matthew:
I think you have to go to the office and get a late slip. I don't know.
Molly:
Okay, so we're hanging out in the-
Matthew:
I haven't been to school in a very long time.
Molly:
... office with David Leite. Anyway, so in April of this year, 2020, they published a recipe for a totally simple kale chip, kale, olive oil, sale, baked at 350. It's-
Matthew:
That is how I've made it also.
Molly:
It's adapted from Timothy Ferriss. Are you familiar with this man's work? He's the author-
Matthew:
I totally am, and what is adapted mean in this case?
Molly:
He has a blog or a website or a book or something called The 4-Hour Chef, which is part of is whole four-hour brand. The 4-Hour Workweek is his most famous book.
Matthew:
Yeah, this guy is the worst. He's very rich but also very easy to make fun of.
Molly:
Perfect. Well anyway, for some reason, Leite's Culinaria hired him or adapted a recipe from him. I don't really understand why. But anyway, the headnote that they wrote is, "You can bling up these kale chips with additional seasonings. Paprika, chili powder, garlic powder, lemon zest..." I don't like the idea of that. "Almost anything that tastes good on potato chips will taste swell on kale chips." Do you ever use the word swell?
Matthew:
I don't and I'm surprised that Timothy Ferriss uses the word swell.
Molly:
Yeah, okay. Anyway. "Add them when you sprinkle the kale with salt. If you really want to convert non-kale-eaters, sprinkle the kale with finely grated Parmesan cheese before baking." Anyway, but what I found interesting about his method, and here's where we can get into really talking about the nitty-gritties, Matthew, is... So he has you wash and dry the kale, but then he has you leave it out on the counter to dry completely for at least another hour so that it gets really crispy. What do you think about this?
Matthew:
I don't think it's necessary. I've made kale chips recently. I did not do an extended drying period and they were crispy.
Molly:
He also advises that you go sparingly on the oil, just enough to lightly coat.
Matthew:
That seems legit.
Molly:
And as for baking, he says that the kale leaves must not touch each other on the sheet pan. That makes sense. You don't want them to steam. He says you shouldn't bake them for more than 20 minutes. Just until golden brown at the edges, not getting charred at the edges.
Matthew:
That also seems right. I think the ones that we made... And actually, teenager of the show Iris made them... baked for 15 to 20.
Molly:
I really liked this particular tester's review from Leite's Culinaria. They said, "I must admit I was a little skeptical when I read this recipe. I thought it was a new fad invented on the West Coast." I love thinking about what the East Coast thinks we're up to over here.
Matthew:
I mean, I think they're probably usually right. Every time I go to California, it's so much more like a stereotype of California than I anticipated.
Molly:
That's true.
Matthew:
And I think probably people feel that way about visiting Portland or Seattle also.
Molly:
That's true.
Matthew:
You go to Seattle, there really are... People are throwing fish at you constantly in all parts of town.
Molly:
I have two cousins who I am close with. Actually, I have three cousins in California. But anyway-
Matthew:
But only two of them that you're close with.
Molly:
Yeah. Sorry, third one. I'm not close with you. No, but-
Matthew:
Yeah, and if you're not sure if you're the third cousin, stay on the ball.
Molly:
Anyway, their kids go to the neighborhood public school and they meditate during the school day.
Matthew:
There we go.
Molly:
Yeah, see? Right? California-
Matthew:
I mean, we had quiet time when I was in-
Molly:
That's different from guided meditation.
Matthew:
You're right.
Molly:
Learning how to meditate at school, that was so far out of my education, it's not even funny.
Matthew:
Yeah. Sounds pretty good, though.
Molly:
It does sound pretty good. I would like, actually, if my kid were learning how to meditate more, specifically in school. Anyway. Okay, but what I also like is that this reviewer who is very skeptical of the West Coast said, "I was pleasantly surprised at how delicious they were, not to mention addictive." People love to throw around the word addictive.
Matthew:
Yeah, it's problematic.
Molly:
"As I pulled these out of the oven, my neighbor stopped by for a visit. She couldn't stop eating them either." And then, Matthew, I fell down a nostalgia wormhole. Do you remember when people could stop by for visits?
Matthew:
Yeah. Depending on the person, I definitely miss it.
Molly:
Do you miss it when I used to stop... But I never just stopped by for visits.
Matthew:
Once in a while you would.
Molly:
That's true.
Matthew:
Yes, I do miss that. I feel like this has a connotation of the neighbor was lured by the aroma of kale chips. Don't you feel that kind of hovering over the scenario here?
Molly:
No. I feel like the neighbor was just a good neighbor like State Farm and they just-
Matthew:
And came over to talk insurance adjusting.
Molly:
You know like in books or something when the kid comes home from school and the next door neighbors come over to have a cup of tea with mom and they're sitting at the kitchen table?
Matthew:
Yeah. What does that have to do with the kid?
Molly:
I don't know. I was just setting the scene, man.
Matthew:
Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. Kid comes home from school and was getting in the way. He keeps coming up to the table like, "Mom, where are my socks?" That kind of thing.
Molly:
Sure. Whatever. Anyway, okay. All right. Listen. At this point, I want to talk a little bit about... I've only made kale chips once and I was so turned off by how they turned out. In light of reading this really simple recipe with all of these very specific technique-based guidelines, I'm really thinking I chose the wrong recipe the first time.
Matthew:
I think so. We can get into that. Can we take a little brief detour down history lane again? Because I have some information about the Kalakala.
Molly:
Oh, sure.
Matthew:
A lot of our listeners are real Kalakala heads. They're going to want to know this news [inaudible 00:20:40] from five years ago.
Molly:
Do you want to let our listeners who aren't in Seattle know what the Kalakala is?
Matthew:
Okay. The Kalakala was a car ferry that served the Seattle area from 1935 to 1967 and was decommissioned and sat around in various places in the Puget Sound area because it was a beautiful kind of art deco, industrial-looking hulk and no one knew what to do with it and no one really wanted it. So it was sitting at this dock on Lake Union or the Ship Canal for a long time and you could see it from the I-5 bridge. Then, in 1995 it was dismantled.
Molly:
Oh.
Matthew:
"On January 4, 2015..." This is from Wikipedia... "owner Karl Anderson announced that the Kalakala would be dismantled for scrap metal."
Molly:
Wait, in 2015? Just a minute ago, you said 1995.
Matthew:
Why did I say that?
Molly:
I don't know.
Matthew:
I think I was thinking of the Kingdome which also was in 1995.
Molly:
Oh, okay. Wait, so in 2015, it was dismantled?
Matthew:
2015. Forget the part where I said 1995. That came out of nowhere and is untrue.
Molly:
Okay.
Matthew:
In 2015... No, obviously, I wouldn't have been seeing it all the time if it had been dismantled in 1995 because I didn't move to Seattle until '96.
Molly:
I feel a little sad that I... I remember learning about the Kalakala and all the questions around what was going to happen to it, but I never actually saw it.
Matthew:
It looks like part of it is going to be turned into public art, part of the hull. I bet you did see it, though, because if you ever drove across the I-5 bridge between 2000 and 2012, you saw it.
Molly:
Yeah. Okay, okay. Fine. I saw it. Anything else you want to say?
Matthew:
This is going to be a recurring segment about what's up with the Kalakala. If that public art project ever happens, we'll let you know.
Molly:
I wonder what has happened with other decommissioned ferry boats because they all have names, right?
Matthew:
Yeah.
Molly:
Which I think is really quaint about the ferry system.
Matthew:
Well, I think all ships have names, right?
Molly:
You're right.
Matthew:
Well, no, it's interesting, though, because not all... I was going to say not all cars have names, but I guess there's a lot more cars than ships. But it's funny how a ship... It never seems like a ship, even a big container ship, is ever called just the... They have numbers, but it's never like the Maersk 27 or something. There's no reason it couldn't be, but they all have names.
Molly:
It's always the HMS Captain Brown or whatever.
Matthew:
Yeah, or the Captain Phillips.
Molly:
Yes. Exactly.
Matthew:
It'd be good to call your ship... I haven't seen that movie, but I think maybe Tom Hanks wins at the end. I'm not sure.
Molly:
Which movie? Oh, Captain Phillips.
Matthew:
Captain Phillips.
Molly:
Wait, what's that movie?
Matthew:
It's a movie about how Tom Hanks has a boat and he gets hijacked by pirates and it's very harrowing. Again, I have not seen the movie, but wife of the show Laurie has. I don't think that they would release the movie if Tom Hanks got killed by the pirates so in some sense, I think he is victorious over the pirates and so-
Molly:
Well, this is our best segment ever. Can we go on?
Matthew:
We did a movie podcast.
Molly:
That's true. =
Matthew:
So we're now movie experts and are qualified to talk about movies such as Captain Phillips. What I'm say is, you should call your boat the Captain Phillips just to put pirates on notice like, "Tom Hanks may be on this boat and is going to kick your ass if you try and board."
Molly:
Matthew, can I talk a little bit about the kale chips recipe that I made a few months ago?
Matthew:
Yes, and then I want to talk about the one that I/ teenager of the show Iris made and why it was better.
Molly:
Okay. I know you and I both get CSA shares. I had a big bunch of curly kale from my CSA earlier in lockdown. I just was sort of kaled out. I didn't want to braise it. By this point, I had done braised kale with spaghetti. I'd done kale and beans and greens. I'd done quick sauteed kale with lemon and garlic. Shit like that. I was over it.
Molly:
I was like, "You know what? I'm finally going to make kale chips." So I did a search for kale chips. Get ready. One of the first posts that came up really sucked me in because of the title, which was How to Make Kale Chips You Actually Want to Eat. Okay?
Matthew:
Yeah, okay. I'm going to hold my response.
Molly:
Anyway, here's the thing. They were heavily flavored. This recipe appeared on thekitchn.com. Anyway, they were flavored with miso, soy sauce and coconut oil. You melted the coconut oil, you whisk the stuff together and then you toss it with the kale. And for one thing, it was a lot of liquid. It was a surprising amount of liquid. The recipe recommended curly kale over dinosaur kale.
Matthew:
I agree with that.
Molly:
And I hated it. I did not want to eat it. I didn't like it. It truly tasted like punishment.
Matthew:
Here's what I think about this recipe, not having actually tried it. Miso and soy sauce are very delicious ingredients that are already very concentrated and burn easily. If you're going to take miso and soy sauce and reduce them by putting them in the oven for 15 or 20 minutes, first of all, you run the risk of burning them which would taste bad, but even if you don't burn them, the taste of those things, which are already so intensely flavored then heavily reduced, is going to be too much, I think.
Molly:
I think maybe it did burn a little bit. I think it had you do it at a lower temperature, maybe 325 or something, so it stayed in there for I think 20 minutes. It tasted like the color dark green and slightly burn-ey and I did not want to eat these. I thought to myself, "Self, you don't like kale chips," but I think I was wrong.
Matthew:
I think you're wrong.
Molly:
I think I need to try again.
Matthew:
We're going to need to revisit this topic... Oh, speaking of which, kohlrabi update. This is a segment heavy-
Molly:
Oh. Oh God, this is the Kalakala kohlrabi episode.
Matthew:
Yes. So the MV Kohlrabi originally launched in 1935.
Molly:
What does MV stand for?
Matthew:
I think marine vessel.
Molly:
Okay. Got it, got it.
Matthew:
Which is a fancy ass way of saying boat.
Molly:
Boat.
Matthew:
We should just call it the B. Don't Mess with the B in Apartment 23, a show about a boat. Have you ever watched that show? It's very funny.
Molly:
No. I don't even know what you're talking about.
Matthew:
It's a show starring Krysten Ritter and the guy from Dawson's Creek.
Molly:
No, I'm busy over here watching really fun stuff that I have to print out charts to follow like [crosstalk 00:27:41]-
Matthew:
You have to-
Molly:
... and Lovecraft Country.
Matthew:
You're going to have to print out a chart to follow this episode because there have been 17 segments. Kohlrabi update. Last night, I made hiyashi chuka, which is a Japanese kind of cold noodle salad dish where it's... Use ramen noodles that you chill and serve with a tart, soy sauce-based sauce with sesame oil and sesame seeds and then you top the noodles with an array of cold meat and vegetables like cucumber, almost always. Daikon is common. Sliced deli ham is very common for whatever reason and very good.
Molly:
I find the deli ham a fascinating addition. I would not have expected it.
Matthew:
It's really good. It's the kind of dish where you use what you have on hand and I had some kohlrabi from the old produce box, and I shredded the kohlrabi and put that on the salad. Fantastic.
Molly:
Wait, tell me about how you shredded it. Was this by hand or...
Matthew:
By hand. It cut into thin batons.
Molly:
Okay, okay.
Matthew:
I still haven't cooked kohlrabi at all, but I've enjoyed every kohlrabi experience I've had so far.
Molly:
Does it make you want to buy kohlrabi, keep it around regularly?
Matthew:
I guess it kind of does. This is the second time we've requested kohlrabi. We kind of got a lot of it. We got one big and two small kohlrabis.
Molly:
That's a lot of kohlrabi.
Matthew:
I used one of the small ones for three servings last night. We also got some giant golden beets that I'm going to roast tonight.
Molly:
Yum. Cool. Well, this has been our everything but the kale chips episode.
Matthew:
Could we call the kohlrabi segment Kohlrabi Corner?
Molly:
Sure, sure.
Matthew:
Or did we already call the Kalakala segment Kalakala Corner?
Molly:
I'm not sure. Matthew, will you talk to me about how you made kale chips or how teenager of the show Iris made kale chips?
Matthew:
I also googled kale chips recipe. I also saw the link that you mentioned. I breezed right past that. I went to allrecipes.com for the most basic kale chips recipe, olive oil, kale and salt. Do we have to explain how kale chips are made? You cut-
Molly:
Well, here's a question. What type of kale did you use?
Matthew:
Curly kale. I think that is absolutely the way to go.
Molly:
Really?
Matthew:
Also, I really don't like Tuscan dino kale.
Molly:
Oh, you don't? I love it.
Matthew:
I've never prepared it in a way that I enjoyed.
Molly:
Oh, that's so interesting. I always default to Tuscan or black kale, dino kale.
Matthew:
I think curly green kale is better for kale chips.
Molly:
Were you careful to really spread the leaves out?
Matthew:
I think so.
Molly:
How-
Matthew:
Like I said, I didn't do the actual cooking, but I think that probably will give you a better result. Although the problem with that is then you can't get all that much kale on to the baking sheet. And here's the thing. Once we started eating these kale chips, we didn't want to stop.
Molly:
Really? So they were-
Matthew:
Yes, they're delicious.
Molly:
They were, as that lady said, really good.
Matthew:
Yeah. A whole bunch of neighbors tried to come over and he had to tell them, "No. We're not doing that."
Molly:
So you would recommend this?
Matthew:
I a hundred percent recommend kale chips. They're delicious. Surprise ending.
Molly:
Really? I am surprised. Mine were so gross. Don't make the recipe I made.
Matthew:
Okay, no, I don't think you need to... I guess if you make kale chips all the time and want to shake things up, fine. But I didn't feel like, "This is good, but it would be better with some Parmesan cheese or some nutritional yeast," or whatever you sprinkle on things. I thought salt worked great.
Molly:
Okay, okay. And then what oven temperature did you use?
Matthew:
350. Is your oven analog like you crank a dial to turn it on?
Molly:
No. No.
Matthew:
Oh, it's digital?
Molly:
Mine is digital, yeah.
Matthew:
When you hit bake, does it default to a particular temperature?
Molly:
350.
Matthew:
Mine too. 350, it's like the medium temperature, right?
Molly:
It is. It is. I think that often in recipes that are originally published in the UK, I see the phrase "Bake in a moderate oven," which-
Matthew:
Oh, like gas mark? Do you ever see the phrase gas mark?
Molly:
Yes, yes. Gas mark.
Matthew:
I don't know what that means at all.
Molly:
Yeah, gas mark 6 or gas mark 4, whatever. No, I think a moderate oven refers to 350.
Matthew:
I think we received 16 stone of kohlrabi. Yeah, I think you're right.
Molly:
That is so, so much kohlrabi. Oh my God. Wow, that's a lot of kohlrabi, dude.
Matthew:
Well, I mean I've been keeping this diary where I track alcohol units in stones, and I am trying to meet Colin Firth or something.
Molly:
All right. Well, so yesterday, I was at the grocery store and I saw some bagged kale chips kind of over in the section where beef jerky is sold, kind of the dehydrated foods in bags.
Matthew:
Sure.
Molly:
I didn't buy them.
Matthew:
I don't think I would buy that just because...
Molly:
It seems like so much packaging for what is a very small amount of chip.
Matthew:
Yeah that, and also probably there are some potato chips-
Molly:
That are better.
Matthew:
... nearby in the store. Again, I enjoyed the kale chips, but I'm not going to seek them out as a snack. I think of them, at this point, more as a side dish than a snack.
Molly:
Oh, yeah.
Matthew:
Not that I wouldn't snack on them, but it's not going to be where my mind goes first.
Molly:
What did you serve them with? Do you remember what else you had for dinner that night?
Matthew:
I might be able to answer that question if we put them on the dinner calendar. We didn't put them on the calendar, but I can tell you the last eight times we did put kale on the calendar.
Molly:
Okay, so you're just searching your calendar for kale.
Matthew:
I'm just searching my calendar for kale. For example, July 2020, July 27, Italian sausage, kale. That doesn't sound like a meal in and of itself, but okay. June 8, pizza and kale. January 23, pizza and kale. I know we've had more kale than this because by the time you go back like eight more kales, it goes back to November 2006.
Molly:
Oh, okay.
Matthew:
But November 16, 2006, I remember it well. Corn bread and kale.
Molly:
Wait a minute. Is this in Google Calendar?
Matthew:
Yeah.
Molly:
And you guys have been doing this since 2006?
Matthew:
Yeah. Maybe further than that. I don't know.
Molly:
Wait a minute. Okay, so is this in the same Google Calendar where you keep your daily schedule and commitment?
Matthew:
I made a separate calendar for dinner so it would show up in a separate color but other than that, yes.
Molly:
When you plan each night's dinner, you put it in here ahead of time?
Matthew:
Yes. I can even tell you what's coming up the next few days.
Molly:
Oh my God. Please tell me. This is like magic.
Matthew:
Abby, bleep this out so the listeners don't know what I'm up to. Just kidding. Tonight, sausage and farro and beets, roasted beets. Tomorrow, yakisoba. Wednesday, pizza. There's like two balls of pizza dough in the freezer so some sort of pizza. Thursday, pad kra pao, holy basil stir fry with beef. And Friday, we're getting takeout from Bonchon, Korean fried chicken.
Molly:
Matthew, I find so much comfort and relief in the idea of somebody else presenting me with a meal calendar and I just sit down and eat it.
Matthew:
I know. A couple times recently, wife of the show Laurie has asked me, "Isn't it annoying if I put a bunch of things on the calendar like, 'Here are the dinners you have to cook'?" I'm like, "No. I feel like you've done 70% of the work."
Molly:
Oh my God. It sounds fantastic to me. So I have been self-employed for like 13 years, mostly, and I thought... I remember when I left my last desk job January or February of 2007, I remember thinking, "I am such a creature of habit. I am going to be the type of person that gets up, spends the same amount of time each day sitting at the desk writing," so on and so forth. I have surprised myself a million times over in the past 13 years by how routine averse I actually am.
Matthew:
Oh, interesting.
Molly:
I cannot seem to get into any sort of routine of planning dinners in any way. Earlier in the pandemic, I definitely was better at planning meals multiple days ahead of time because... Well still, now, we try to only go grocery shopping once a week. But I'm not planning things anymore. I'm just sort of buying the things that we usually buy. I would say I maybe actually cook two meals a week and the rest of the time, we just sort of eat out of the fridge.
Matthew:
Yeah, I hear you.
Molly:
But I would like to come over to your house and... There's something really soothing to me about your meal calendar in the way that it was always soothing and exciting to me when my high school lunch cafeteria would post the menu for the week. And we're talking about a cafeteria. This was not always great. Sometimes, it was creamed.. Beef on toast.
Matthew:
Wow.
Molly:
But I knew it was going to happen. I knew it was going to happen and I didn't have to do it.
Matthew:
Oh, yeah. No, I know what you mean. When I was in elementary school, Wednesday was chili day.
Molly:
Love that.
Matthew:
I've mentioned this on the show before. I still frequently eat the chili that was served on Wednesdays in my elementary school.
Molly:
Really?
Matthew:
Yeah. It was Stagg Country chili.
Molly:
That's amazing. I love that you even know what the brand was.
Matthew:
Yeah, no, it's exactly the same.
Molly:
Luisa Weiss of blog The Wednesday Chef... I know we talked about how earlier in the pandemic, she was doing this thing in her Instagram Stories where she was sort of sharing what she was making each night, but one of the things that she talked about during that time is that her family definitely has a kind of rough meal calendar, kind of like a... In a nice way, like a school cafeteria like, "Monday night is..." I'm just making this up.
Matthew:
Wow.
Molly:
"chicken. Tuesday night is pasta. Wednesday night is soup." So on and so forth.
Matthew:
I like that idea.
Molly:
I like that idea too, and I don't know why I don't have the discipline to do it. But I just don't.
Matthew:
The thing that I get most thrown off by is vegetables and side dishes. I want to have a meal that works the vegetables in, but we don't quite eat in a vegetable primary sort of way, as you can tell by the meals I just read off. So figuring out like, "I have to make a main dish and also make these vegetables," that continues to be difficult.
Molly:
I think where I get stymied is the exact opposite thing. We have a lot of vegetable-heavy meals and if it were up to me, I think I would always be kind of only focused on the vegetable and then the rest of the meal would kind of be an afterthought.
Matthew:
You want to big kohlrabi? I can give you one when you come by tomorrow.
Molly:
No, but if it were up to me, I would do something like... I would say in the last month, I have probably eaten at least 10 meals of a variation of a caprese salad, so mozzarella, tomato, basil, but then throwing in slices of salami, slices of avocado, slices of cucumber and some bread. Boom. That is as much as I want to do right now.
Matthew:
Oh, that sounds good. Can I make a suggestion either to you or just to me to do this sometime soon while tomato season is-
Molly:
Sure.
Matthew:
Caprese with silken tofu in place of mozzarella is fantastic.
Molly:
You know, I just saw somebody talking about that kind of thing on Instagram.
Matthew:
I've had this at a [crosstalk 00:39:37] in Japan and it was so good.
Molly:
This is so interesting to me because I can't imagine the flavor of the silken tofu with the tomato but then again, it's not like mozzarella, in that situation, brings a ton of flavor.
Matthew:
No, it's just like a different... It's a more subtle shift than you might imagine.
Molly:
Matthew, I want you to make it for me, then.
Matthew:
I know.
Molly:
I don't want to do it.
Matthew:
Can we do a yakisoba episode? I don't think we've done that.
Molly:
Yes. Let's do a yakisoba episode.
Matthew:
I feel like my yakisoba technique has improved recently and I want to share that with you and maybe send you some ingredients.
Molly:
I would love this because I think my family would also love it if I made yakisoba.
Matthew:
In fact, we have a couple of packs of noodles in the freezer. Maybe I will send you home with a pack a noodles, at least, tomorrow.
Molly:
Okay, okay. So I know that it usually has pickled ginger in it as well.
Matthew:
Yes.
Molly:
What do I do if my family doesn't really like pickled ginger but I do?
Matthew:
Oh, you can serve it on the side. It's not something that needs to be cooked so you can serve it on the side and toss in as much as you personally want.
Molly:
My kid has begun, as you know, orthodontia. And I got to tell you, it is so messing with my ability to cook. I had no idea how disruptive this would be.
Matthew:
Oh, I bet.
Molly:
It sucks.
Matthew:
Just go milkshakes every meal.
Molly:
Oh my God, that's terrible.
Matthew:
When I had gum surgery a couple years ago, I ate all pudding, basically.
Molly:
It's very hard to find any sort of soft, snack-ey food that is not super sweet.
Matthew:
I know. And that's the thing, I realize now that... That, I was really out of commission just for like two weeks which sucked, but then I could go back to eating popcorn and stuff. But if it was going to be a long, arduous process, I would still just eat pudding. Just fuck it. Fuck it. Pudding. That's my new slogan.
Molly:
Fuck it. Pudding. Speaking of fucking pudding, this reminds me of an old skit from The State.
Matthew:
Yep. Yep, yep.
Molly:
Yes. With Barry and Le Von? Is that it, their characters they played?
Matthew:
We've linked to this before.
Molly:
[inaudible 00:41:48] great. I'm sorry.
Matthew:
We'll probably do it again.
Molly:
I've reached that age now where I just keep repeating myself.
Matthew:
Oh, no, no. Me too.
Molly:
And soon, I'm going to be talking about how when I was a kid, toys were 25 cents.
Matthew:
No, no. I think we've talked about it before that I remember when candy bars at Sellwood Market went up from 30 cents to 35 cents and it felt like an appalling change.
Molly:
I remember when a pack of gum was like 47 cents.
Matthew:
Yep. I remember when a stamp was 20 cents.
Molly:
Wait, like an actual first-class stamp?
Matthew:
An actual first-class stamp was 20 cents at some point when I was a kid.
Molly:
Oh my God.
Matthew:
And then it went up to 22 and then 23 and then 25, I think. Next week's episode is going to be about the history of first class American postage.
Molly:
Oh, wow. I can't wait. All right.
Matthew:
Me neither, and you don't have to because it's starting right now.
Molly:
Hopefully, there'll be a Kalakala segment.
Matthew:
We'll break for a Kalakala segment and a kohlrabi segment and there were other segments. History lane.
Molly:
I brake for Kalakala.
Matthew:
Yep. Too late. It already broke.
Molly:
Oh.
Matthew:
Whoa. Hey oh.
Molly:
Oh my God.
Matthew:
Kids love kale chips. You can find us at spilledmilkpodcast.com and at facebook.com/spilledmilkpodcast. Where were you when you first heard about kale chips? And Instagram at @spilledmilkpodcast.
Molly:
Oh, our producer is Abby Cerquitella.
Matthew:
Yep. We couldn't do the show without her. She always cuts out Molly's-
Molly:
Matthew, stop it.
Matthew:
Yeah, that was not [crosstalk 00:43:27].
Molly:
God, people are going to think I'm even worse than just a kale chip eating automaton.
Matthew:
Thank you for listening to Spilled Milk. We really blew our collective wad.
Molly:
God, I hate that saying.
Matthew:
I know, it's so awful.
Molly:
I mean, doesn't it refer to just jizz?
Matthew:
Of course. Yes.
Molly:
It's so gross.
Matthew:
Just jizz.
Molly:
That sounds like the name of a kiosk in the...
Matthew:
Do you know the [inaudible 00:43:52] of when someone gets... I'm sorry. Thank you for not letting me blow past that. Like a mall kiosk called Just Jizz?
Molly:
Yeah. Like the ones-
Matthew:
What happens... Wait, why am I asking things I don't want to know the answer to?
Molly:
Like the kiosks where they sell earrings or...
Matthew:
Yeah, or phone chargers.
Molly:
Yes, exactly.
Matthew:
But this one literally just sells jizz. In vials or...
Molly:
Yes. This is how...
Matthew:
This is how we do it.
Molly:
This is how... What do you call it?
Matthew:
Artificial insemination?
Molly:
Yes. This is how it works.
Matthew:
This is how it... Yes. You go to the mall, you go to the... There's like one kiosk at either end of the mall like the Wetzel's Pretzels.
Molly:
Just jizz.
Matthew:
That's right. They have a catalog you can leaf through and you're like, "Okay, this one seems fine." Will they include a turkey baster?
Molly:
Matthew, let's work on a real closing joke.
Matthew:
No, that was it. I'm Matthew Amster-Burton.
Molly:
No. No, no, no. No.
Matthew:
Wait, we're not keeping that?
Molly:
No. That was just for us.
Matthew:
Oh. That was just jizz for us. I think we need to keep that.
Molly:
Are you sure? Won't some people be offended by it? I'm afraid.
Matthew:
Offended? Our listeners?
Molly:
Probably not.
Matthew:
We've said many worse things than that.
Molly:
Okay, fine. Fine. Okay.
Matthew:
But I was going to mention, did you know that the expression getting the shaft is also penis related?
Molly:
Oh, really?
Matthew:
Yes.
Molly:
I thought that it meant that you were being sent down a chute into the trash or something.
Matthew:
I thought so too, but I once had the opportunity to ask this of Jesse Sheidlower who used to work for the OED. He's an actual lexicographer and he's like, "Oh yeah, it's totally a penis thing."
Molly:
Wow. To get the shaft. I had no idea. That's fascinating.
Matthew:
This is definitely a new segment.
Molly:
What, like-
Matthew:
It doesn't have to be all penis related expressions, of course, but we definitely need to do this every week.
Molly:
Okay. So wait, what is this segment called now?
Matthew:
Oh, this segment is called... Oh. Well, I mean I guess it's no longer called Just Jizz because I just said it was not that, but does jizz have to be semen?
Molly:
God. Yes. Stop saying it.
Matthew:
You said it first. All right.
Molly:
I'm Molly Wizenberg.
Matthew:
I'm Matthew Amster-Burton.
Molly:
Oh, we're going to take that out of the show. Abby, take that out. Please.