Embedded Files
Molly:
I'm Molly.
Matthew:
And I'm Matthew.
Molly:
And this is Spilled Milk, the show where we cook something delicious, eat it all, and you can't have any.
Matthew:
And today we're talking about my favorite thing, paper towels.
Molly:
Delicious.
Matthew:
I don't know, I'm a little nervous about this episode because I'm not sure if it's okay to love paper towels as much as I do-
Molly:
I know.
Matthew:
... but I do.
Molly:
So, Matthew and I take turns doing the research for episodes, and I did the research on this one, and I went deep down this moral quandary that I think we should all confront when we're talking about disposable paper products, right?
Matthew:
Yeah. I think we have to kind of think about it in the way we would think about like a Quarter Pounder with Cheese, is it good in kind of a cosmic, planetary sense? No. Is it good? Yeah.
Molly:
Okay. I think that's fair.
Matthew:
Right?
Molly:
I think that our listeners are sophisticated enough to understand that extremely sophisticated metaphor.
Matthew:
Oh yeah, yeah, our listeners navigate complex moral quandaries every day. I think this is true.
Molly:
Exactly. I think all human beings alive in 2020 navigate complicated moral quandaries everyday. Shout out to complicated moral quandaries.
Matthew:
Yeah. Do I spend my time listening to a podcast where two dum-dums talk about dumb stuff, or do something worthwhile with my time? That's a moral quandary.
Molly:
Yeah, it is. Okay, well, anyway, this episode I think, was suggested by hosts Molly and Matthew.
Matthew:
Yeah, I think so. Probably me, because of my love for-
Molly:
For paper towels.
Matthew:
For paper towels.
Molly:
All right. Well, hey, wait, let's go down memory lane, did your family use paper towels growing up?
Matthew:
This may shock you, but yes.
Molly:
Whoa, I did not see that coming.
Matthew:
At this time, I remember to ask mom of the show, Judy Amster, and she said, "I think I used Bounty or Brawny until I discovered Viva."
Molly:
Oh my God, I'm so glad this came up.
Matthew:
She don't really specify what happened when she discovered Viva, this was a brief text conversation, and so I didn't get to go deep. But then she added, "We just got a huge pack from QFC and it is new and not like the one we've used for many years." That's Viva.
Molly:
Oh, Viva you are on blast.
Matthew:
And I got to tell you, I also bought the new Viva and it sucks.
Molly:
Really?
Matthew:
Yes. It's supposed to be cloth like, guess what? That's not what you want in a paper towel.
Molly:
This is so interesting. Okay, so my family definitely used paper towels when I was growing up. And as I recall, we had one of those dispensers that was mounted to the inside of a cabinet. Did you have a free standing dispenser-
Matthew:
I think we had.
Molly:
... one that was under a cabinet or inside a cabinet?
Matthew:
I'm not positive I'm remembering this correctly, but I think we had the under cabinet kind, it's like plastic then the ends kind of flip out and lock into the ends of the tube.
Molly:
Guess what, Matthew? I still have that kind.
Matthew:
Oh, it's good. Yeah.
Molly:
Yeah. So, the house that I live in was built in 1958, and as far as I can tell, the kitchen has not been updated much. So, these are some real old paper towel wall-mounted bracket thingies, and I still use them.
Matthew:
Yeah, why not?
Molly:
Yeah. Okay, so yeah. My family growing up, we had a wall-mounted thing that was inside a cabinet right underneath the kitchen sink. And I remember when Viva first came out, whatever they did with their campaigns was super persuasive.
Matthew:
Oh, interesting. Wait a minute, which one is the Quicker Picker Upper? Do you know?
Molly:
Bounty.
Matthew:
Okay.
Molly:
Bounty. And that has been their slogan for ages. In fact, I don't know if you saw, but much further down in the agenda, I linked to a YouTube ad that is for Bounty and that was their slogan back then.
Matthew:
Oh, no, I didn't watch that.
Molly:
It's very old.
Matthew:
But we'll link to it in the show notes, right?
Molly:
Yeah. But anyway, I remember telling my mother about Viva paper towels, this ad that I had seen as a child.
Matthew:
Oh yes.
Molly:
And I remember my mom bought some, and I thought they were amazing because they were more like cloth. But I remember that my mother didn't like them as much because they weren't as good for cleaning things. Somehow, yeah, I guess that is not what you want in a paper towel. You don't want it to be like cloth, maybe.
Matthew:
Okay. So, a couple of memory lane things, first of all, speaking of unnecessary things I told my parents, one time I warned my dad not to drink and drive because he was drinking water while driving and I did not understand what drinking meant, I was probably six. Did you have, as a kid, a thing that your parents were always reminding you to do or not to do that you just would never get right, and just became an ongoing source of conflict? A little thing.
Molly:
I don't remember it that way. I remember things that my mother said over and over, pieces of advice that I came to sort of parody. My mom would always say... When I was old enough to go somewhere by myself, in middle school and she would drop me off at the mall with my friends, for instance-
Matthew:
Oh yeah.
Molly:
... she would always say, "Have presence of mind."
Matthew:
Oh, that's good.
Molly:
Yeah. And I would parody it back to her because I found it so irritating.
Matthew:
My mom would always say, "You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar." Really?
Molly:
Wait for real?
Matthew:
Oh, all the time.
Molly:
Would she say that when she dropped you off at the mall?
Matthew:
No. I would come back covered with honey and flies, and be like, "Mum, I took your advice, had a great time at the mall."
Molly:
So, would she use it if you were being like a little shit?
Matthew:
No, I think... I mean, yes, it was like, here's how to ask for what you want, don't whine about it. But the way this relates back to paper towels, I know you were wondering, is that one thing that my mom was big on, and speaking of conservation, is like, "If you use a paper towel and just kind of wet it and wipe something with it, and it's not really dirty, leave it by the sink so someone else can use it to wipe the next thing." I would always throw it away and get caught somehow doing this. I remember this really well, but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense now that I tell it back.
Molly:
This is so interesting because, if I see a paper towel on the counter, unless I know that I left it there, I kind of don't want to touch it.
Matthew:
Agreed.
Molly:
We'll get back to this, the idea of reusing paper towels.
Matthew:
Yeah. Because, I mean, that means someone in my family touched it and they have [crosstalk 00:06:33].
Molly:
And eew, my family. [inaudible 00:06:35]. Okay, but wait, I want to finish my memory lane.
Matthew:
Yes, yes, of course.
Molly:
So yeah, I remember... I think we blew through paper towels when I was growing up. We always had both... What we called tea towels or cloth kitchen towels, and paper towels, and they had very distinct different uses, which I have continued into adulthood today. And we can say more about that.
Matthew:
Okay, I can't wait for that. I was just making a note of something very important that we left off the agenda. But now I'll remember later to bring it up [inaudible 00:07:09] we're both teasing something.
Molly:
Ooh, this is so exciting. Okay, well, hold on, I think that we need to clarify that, in this episode, this is so important. Listeners tune in.
Matthew:
Okay, yeah, no. If we're going a little staticky, tune your radio dial so that we come through crisp and clear, because you're going to want to hear this.
Molly:
All right. So, we are focusing on disposable paper towels that are sold in rolls of perforated sheets in this episode. We're not really going to be talking about the pre-cut pre-folded stacks of paper towels that you would find in a dispenser.
Matthew:
Yeah. Although now that you bring those up, I kind of want to talk about them.
Molly:
Wait, really?
Matthew:
Well-
Molly:
I mean, I think we're talking about paper towels for home kitchen use.
Matthew:
Yes. Okay. No. We'll save that for... We'll do a whole series on industrial products.
Molly:
[inaudible 00:07:58] tune in.
Matthew:
So, stay tuned for that. Tune in, as we've always said. Maybe that should just be our new slogan-
Molly:
Tune in.
Matthew:
You're listening to Spilled Milk, tune in.
Molly:
It's perfect. Okay. All right. But anyway, what I do want to say though, and I found this interesting, maybe I've been in lockdown for too long, but the history of paper towels in general began in the bathroom.
Matthew:
Oh, I want to hear this. Is it time for a history lesson?
Molly:
It's time for a history lesson. All right. So, paper towels are actually the younger sibling of toilet paper.
Matthew:
That's a strange way of expressing that, and I like it.
Molly:
Which came first, the toilet paper or the paper towel? Which is the [crosstalk 00:08:42] question.
Matthew:
Oh, okay. So, the toilet paper came first.
Molly:
The toilet paper came first. Yeah. So, in 1879, the Scott Paper Company of Philadelphia introduced rolled toilet paper to the market. I guess prior to that, were people using cloth?
Matthew:
I think pages from the Sears Roebuck Catalog.
Molly:
Oh, that seems right.
Matthew:
Cloth, maybe.
Molly:
Or were they using... Did we use to use more [inaudible 00:09:05] back in the day, were people just hosing themselves?
Matthew:
Yeah. In America in the 1870s people had [inaudible 00:09:13], the average American.
Molly:
There was so much plumbing.
Matthew:
Right. When you say hosing, [inaudible 00:09:20] isn't like a garden hose.
Molly:
Either.
Matthew:
Okay. Yes to the garden hose. I don't know, I think probably someone has written a history of toilets and/or toilet paper that goes deeply into this topic that I'm not sure if I actually want to know more about.
Molly:
Okay, interestingly enough, or maybe not interestingly, when rolled toilet paper was introduced on the market, it was considered almost like a medical product.
Matthew:
Oh, interesting.
Molly:
Apparently, it was sold mostly in pharmacies. Isn't that interesting? It's kind of weird, right?
Matthew:
I mean, it's hard to imagine the supremacy of rolled toilet paper ever being dethroned, so to speak. But if a new toilet paper... Well okay, but actually, now that I say that, it seemed like everybody was using wet wipes for a while until we found out we were not supposed to do that. So, I don't know what I'm talking about when it comes to the butt department.
Molly:
Anyway, several years later... 1879 was when Scott brought rolled toilet paper to the market. And several years later, around 1907, the paper towel was quote, unquote, born, the younger sibling was born.
Matthew:
Right.
Molly:
And this was as a result of a mistake in toilet paper production, apparently.
Matthew:
Oh.
Molly:
I mean, this could be apocryphal, but I found it in multiple places on the internet, and the internet is always right. Anyway, an entire shipment of toilet paper was apparently made incorrectly, and it was too thick to be used as toilet paper.
Matthew:
Oh, so, it came out kind of like card stock.
Molly:
Yeah. And the people at Scott-
Matthew:
That's what people used before roll toilet paper was-
Molly:
Yes.
Matthew:
130 pound card stock. Sometimes, discarded greeting cards. Christmas is over, we've got all this Santa cards.
Molly:
Don't give away all my secrets.
Matthew:
Your secrets about... You-
Molly:
What I do with people's greeting cards after the holidays are over.
Matthew:
Oh, all right, of course. Oh, I was thinking this was an industrial surplus, but you're just wiping your ass with Santa-
Molly:
My friends' faces.
Matthew:
From last month. Yeah.
Molly:
Yeah.
Matthew:
Their Christmas family newsletter.
Molly:
Yep. Or my friend's adorable post photo session with their children.
Matthew:
Right. Yeah, this is what I think of your honor student.
Molly:
Mm-hmm (affirmative) Okay. Anyway, so the people at Scott had to figure out what to do with this giant shipment of too thick toilet paper. So, here's where I think this sounds a little far fetched.
Matthew:
I'm reading ahead and I agree.
Molly:
Okay. Apparently, they learned of a school teacher who in an effort to stop the spread of germs, had given one of her students a torn off piece of toilet paper to blow his nose into rather than letting him touch the whole roll.
Matthew:
Okay, so many questions.
Molly:
And Scott took the idea and ran with it, producing these perforated sheets of this thicker towel and selling them as individual tissues called Sani-Towels, which were intended to be used in public restrooms. This seems like... I call BS on this.
Matthew:
Couple of questions. First of all, this is 1907, how did they hear about this school teacher? On YouTube?
Molly:
I found myself wondering the same thing, did somebody send out a bulletin, or was it posted up in the town square?
Matthew:
No, if they'd send a bulletin to Scott, they would have just wiped their ass with the bulletin, we know how things went back then. Also, I'm thinking of Scott as just a guy named Scott, right?
Molly:
There was a guy named Scott.
Matthew:
First name?
Molly:
His last name was Scott.
Matthew:
No, I'm thinking of... Who's a famous Scott?
Molly:
Scott Baio.
Matthew:
Okay. So, speaking of things you would like to use to wipe your ass-
Molly:
Oh, Matthew, okay. I was about to reference Animal Crossing again but I pulled myself back from the edge. So, at Resident Services-
Matthew:
[crosstalk 00:13:18] Animal Crossing?
Molly:
Yeah. So, there's kind of this Central Plaza and there's Resident Services, which is where Tom Nook... Who's the chipmunk guy, who's the mayor of the island or whatever. Where he is and where you can go to buy and sell things. I think his little friend Timmy or Tommy is there. And there's a thing called a Nook Stop, which I think is like an ATM, June has explained it to me 18 times. But anyway, I don't know-
Matthew:
A Nook Stop sounds like a love hotel.
Molly:
It does.
Matthew:
Okay, right.
Molly:
I don't know if I told you [inaudible 00:13:53]. So, June keeps getting herself massively into debt on Animal Crossing.
Matthew:
Oh no, this is a bad sign. You should just cut your losses now and get a new kid.
Molly:
She keeps adding on rooms to her house in Animal Crossing. And I'll be like, "But, June, how much debt did you take on?" And she's like, "It's only like 20,000 Bells." And I'm like, "How are you going to pay it off?" And she's like, "By picking and selling flowers." So, she's got it all figured out, exactly how economics works. But anyway, what I wanted to say is that once, Ash... So, Ash has only played Animal Crossing once, but the reason that they got on to play it was to try to quickly get June out of debt. You can see the metaphors [crosstalk 00:14:40].
Matthew:
Yeah.
Molly:
And so, one night, after June went to bed, Ash was like, "I'm going to see if I can figure out how to get her out of debt faster, she's in so much debt." Anyway, Ash wound up getting totally hooked into Animal Crossing that night.
Matthew:
Of course, this is how they get you.
Molly:
And stayed up until 1:00 in the morning collecting sea shells and flowers and tree branches, and selling them at Resident Services. Anyway, but Ash at one point in the middle of the night while shaking trees got stung by a wasp [crosstalk 00:15:17].
Matthew:
Wait, in the game still, right?
Molly:
In the game. And their face was all swollen. So, they went to the town square, outside of Resident Services and posted a sign on the bulletin board saying, "Does anybody have any medicine for wasp stings? I got stung."
Matthew:
Wow.
Molly:
Anyway, so I just wonder, if this school teacher... Bringing it back to Scott, I just wonder if this school teacher after she had figured out germ theory, went and posted it on the bulletin board outside the real life equivalent of Resident Services, and then Scott saw it and was like, "Germ theory, ding ding ding. I'm going to make Sani-Towels."
Matthew:
But my next question is, why isn't-
Molly:
Do you like how I brought that all the way back?
Matthew:
I did, that was really impressive. But you never mentioned whether Ash made a dent on the accumulated debt.
Molly:
Yeah, June has now paid off her debt many times over-
Matthew:
Oh, wow. Okay.
Molly:
And is now adding... I think that she's currently decorating the third room on her house.
Matthew:
Okay. All right.
Molly:
Yeah.
Matthew:
Why isn't this the origin story of Kleenex? Because it's-
Molly:
That's what I was thinking. What the hell? This has nothing to do with paper towels.
Matthew:
Because paper towels are not good for blowing your nose. They're better than nothing, but-
Molly:
This is very weird. I mean, I wonder if I stopped my research too soon, and if I should have kept going. Maybe I read the only two websites on the internet that tell this story, and all the rest of them link this to Kleenex?
Matthew:
Yeah, I think we're going to hear from some people named Scott. We need some more details.
Molly:
Okay. Anyway, so, the early paper towels were those pre-cut folded sheets. And Scott had a competitor... I love the name of this, it was a brand called Nibroc which was Corbin spelled backwards.
Matthew:
I was just going to ask if it was founded by Corbin Bernsen.
Molly:
No, but it was founded by someone else whose name was Corbin.
Matthew:
So, it really was because it was Corbin spelled back?
Molly:
Yes Corbin.
Matthew:
Oh, that's great. Nibroc.
Molly:
And I don't know what happened to them. But anyway, then over time, much later, in 1931, Scott brought out rolls of paper towels, and those were marketed as kitchen towels.
Matthew:
And that changed everything.
Molly:
That changed everything. Yeah. But I think that... As we've all experienced, paper towels come in sort of two different classes, there's domestic use and institutional use. Institutional being what we encounter in the bathroom at the movie theater.
Matthew:
Right. That you pull and the next one comes out.
Molly:
Yeah. And that are very papery. I mean, the quality of absorbency is very different from a home use paper towel.
Matthew:
No. When paper towels were in really short supply a few months ago, I was looking at, should I buy institutional paper towels? And I'm like, "No, that's just going to make me sad."
Molly:
No, it does not do the same thing. It was interesting... I think I'm using the word interesting too much. But paper towels soak up water precisely because they're loosely woven. So, this enables water to travel between the fibers even against gravity, which is the capillary effect.
Matthew:
I wonder if this is related to why... I feel like my favorite paper towels have kind of a stiff texture, sort of the opposite of a [inaudible 00:18:47].
Molly:
What do you mean?
Matthew:
Like card stock. No. That they wouldn't crumple well because they're not very soft, but that somehow seems to make them more durable and absorbent up to a point.
Molly:
That's interesting because... God, again, I'm really thrown around interesting. I think of toilet paper for instance, very soft, able to be crumpled easily. Is it more tightly woven somehow? Or is it just a different class of paper fiber, maybe?
Matthew:
Yeah, or maybe smaller fibers? I don't know, which I guess, would also make more tightly woven. We talked about-
Molly:
We should have had Scott on this show.
Matthew:
We should have gotten Scott on this show. The immortal entity that founded and still runs Scott Paper Products.
Molly:
Yes. Anyway, I think that people might also want to know, or maybe not.
Matthew:
Kind of one of those Cthulhu monsters, but very nice.
Molly:
Cthulhu.
Matthew:
Don't judge him based on his appearance.
Molly:
How do you spell that? Is that one of those words I've always looked at and not exactly known how to pronounce?
Matthew:
Probably. I think it's C-T-H-U-L-U with possibly another H in there somewhere. C-T-H-U-L-H-U maybe.
Molly:
Okay. I'm so glad to know how to pronounce that.
Matthew:
I think it's Cthulhu.
Molly:
Oh, great. Okay. Americans use more paper towels at home than any other country. There are-
Matthew:
That doesn't surprise me.
Molly:
Does not surprise me either. We are a real-
Matthew:
On a per capital basis?
Molly:
Yes. We are a real disposable kind of culture.
Matthew:
Did you learn how many rolls per person per year?
Molly:
Yeah, but I didn't write it down.
Matthew:
Okay, cool.
Molly:
Matthew, can you... I know you did a little bit of research into why there is an ongoing paper towel shortage.
Matthew:
Okay. This is to use a word that's been thrown around a lot lately. So, interesting.
Molly:
Okay, great.
Matthew:
So, we're going to link to this article from The Wall Street Journal, and I feel like... The Wall Street Journal sucks for a lot of reasons, but this is the kind of thing that they were born to do, is a long article about the economics of paper towels supply chain, and I could not put this down. So, there are a couple of things going on, why it's still a little tough to get paper towels. Partly, it's because people shifted from using more institutional paper towels to more home paper towels, because we weren't going to restaurants and offices as much. And those are produced using different machines in different ways, and you can't just switch a factory from one to the other.
Matthew:
But also, there's more to it than that. A small increase in the demand for paper products will always cause a shortage, because inventory is low. And that's kind of true, been an ongoing trend across manufacturing. Manufacturers do not keep warehouses of inventory around anymore because it costs money to do that. And it's especially expensive and inefficient to store paper products because they're bulky and cheap. So, if you have a warehouse full of paper towels, you are just bleeding money, right?
Molly:
Ah, okay.
Matthew:
And on top of that... So then, why not just increase production? Well, it takes years to build a new paper towel making machine? And so, there was a little bit of idled production capacity that manufacturers could call on. But basically, unless they were going to really jack up the price of paper towels, which has its own problems, you're going to be stuck with a limited supply of paper towels for a while.
Molly:
Is the same thing true for toilet paper? Is that why they're-
Matthew:
I think the same thing is true for toilet paper, although... With any of these things, when they were talking about stop hoarding toilet paper, the truth was, if everybody gets a little bit of extra toilet paper when they go to the store, that will cause a shortage of toilet paper. It doesn't have to be one bad dude buying 7000 rolls of toilet paper.
Molly:
Okay. It's very sensitive to fluctuations because of all of these issues.
Matthew:
Yes. Yep.
Molly:
Okay. I want to talk a little bit about, how you use paper towels now as opposed to when you were a kid, if there's a brand you prefer. But it's interesting because I see that... I'm looking at the agenda, you do have a brand you prefer. But I can't even remember the last time I had a choice of brands.
Matthew:
Oh, yeah, no. We happen to have a little of this brand on hand right now, but I become pretty flexible, basically, anything but the Viva cloth like one, seems okay to me.
Molly:
Yeah. I'm always looking for the one that is cheapest and gives me the most at this point.
Matthew:
And I think store brand paper towels are fine.
Molly:
I agree. I agree. They have a different texture that I don't love compared to one of the name brand ones, but... Anyway, let's get down to it.
Matthew:
Okay. Do you think we're going to get the Viva ad contract by the way?
Molly:
Yeah. Actually, I had to decline a call from them right now. They love this episode and can't wait to throw money on it.
Matthew:
Oh, they're listening to the episode in real time? They tuned in.
Molly:
Yes. They tuned in.
Matthew:
So, first of all, can we agree that the choose-a-size where you can tear off a half sheet is inherently better than the you have to tear off a whole sheet size?
Molly:
And by whole sheet we mean a square-
Matthew:
A square.
Molly:
That's roughly what? Maybe 10 by 10 or 12 by 12, or something.
Matthew:
Yeah, exactly.
Molly:
Oh, I agree. I have to say, I don't think I've ever bought paper towels based on any writing on the package about how they're perforated or what size sheets?
Matthew:
Oh, I do.
Molly:
I have not done that. But it's been a very long time since I bought paper towels that were not perforated at the half sheet.
Matthew:
Yeah, I think that's become more common than the alternative, which is good. But also, we need to talk about... This is the thing that I added to the agenda just a few minutes ago, what size of roll do you like? Because you go to the paper towel section and assuming there's more than one to choose from, it's going to be two rolls equals five rolls, or one roll equals eight rolls. What are you going for there? [inaudible 00:24:57] all kinds of memes about paper towel math is hard and stuff. But I like a big roll, personally.
Molly:
I like a big roll too, because... Well, for one thing, maybe this is the same for you, I know that you guys have a storage locker or something in your apartment building that's down a few floors.
Matthew:
Some people may have those but we don't. We used to in our old building 15 years ago.
Molly:
Oh, gosh, so I guess when you say storage room, you mean your second bathroom [crosstalk 00:25:27]?
Matthew:
Our secret storage bathroom. Yes.
Molly:
Okay. Our house is a... You enter on the second floor. And our utility room is downstairs and we have a shelf on the wall in the utility room where we keep all the extra stuff that you can't fit under the sink in the bathroom, or whatever. So, when we run out of paper towels, I have to go down a whole flight of stairs to get another roll.
Matthew:
Oh, yeah, I see.
Molly:
So yeah. Once again, I don't think this factors into which one, which brand, or which particular product I buy, but it factors into my satisfaction once I have it hanging from the holder in my kitchen. And yes, I like a fatter roll.
Matthew:
Right. Yeah, no, I feel like if I get the skinnier rolls and I put it on the paper towel rack, I feel like right away, like, oh, I'm almost out of paper towels.
Molly:
Yes.
Matthew:
That's a bad feeling.
Molly:
But I find that... What you're referring to as the skinnier rolls, or the rolls that just don't have as many sheets, I think it tends to be more eco friendly brands, or-
Matthew:
Yeah, that's possible.
Molly:
Sort of natural brands. Because if you're buying Bounty or Brawny, it's like bigger is better, America first, kind of vibe.
Matthew:
Yeah, for sure. I have been into lately... So, the big innovation in paper towels in the last few years obviously has been the select-a-size, double the perforations. And some genius at Brawny was like, "Okay, what if we doubled the perforations again, but put one down-"
Molly:
Down the middle?
Matthew:
... "perpendicular to the roll?"
Molly:
This is so smart.
Matthew:
So, you can tear off a square that's a quarter of the size of the big square. And that's often the perfect size for one gross thing that's on your counter that you don't want to touch.
Molly:
Yes. Well, I frequently will tear off the half sheet perforation... I'll tear off a half sheet at the perforation, and then tear it roughly in half to use it, for instance, to maybe wipe the outside of the compost bin, or a little task like that. If I've dripped coffee on the counter, or... Yeah, that's so smart. I didn't know that there was a brand that was actually perforating.
Matthew:
Yep, Brawny Tear-A-Square, if you see it, grab it.
Molly:
Okay. So, what do you use paper towels for these days?
Matthew:
Okay. So, I use paper towels-
Molly:
Wait, wait, I want to clarify that I know that you, like me, also keep cloth towels in the kitchen. So-
Matthew:
I do.
Molly:
Can you distinguish?
Matthew:
We've been using cloth napkins a lot more recently, but I still will usually reach for a paper towel over a cloth towel because, dealing with the fallout of wiping something up with a cloth towel that's actually messy, I don't want to see that again. And so, if it's something gross that I want to just make go away, I will reach for a paper towel. For wiping a little bit of crumbs off the table, cloth towel is fine. Although, you can probably get away with that with a single Brawny Square. And for cleaning kitchen counters, I usually use a scrubber sponge.
Molly:
Yes.
Matthew:
So, it's basically, when there's something that I want to wipe off or wipe out that feels gross.
Molly:
What about drying your hands after you wash them?
Matthew:
I use a cloth towel for that.
Molly:
Okay. I think we're very similar in this respect.
Matthew:
That's really funny that you said that though, because I feel like I am a profligate user of paper towels and that's just where I'm at. But when you said that, drying by hands on a paper towel at home after washing my hands, that feels very wasteful.
Molly:
Yeah, isn't that interesting?
Matthew:
That's where the line is for me apparently. I never thought about it before.
Molly:
Well, it makes sense though. If you think about the fact that the cloth towel is going to be used probably by all the members of your household. So, if you all have this sort of silent agreement, if you all got together and shook hands, that you were only going to use it to dry hands or do non messy tasks, you are probably doing the more hygienic thing, right? And this is what paper towels were designed for in theory. To do the work where you don't want to be coming into contact with other people's germs or whatever.
Matthew:
Yeah, no, we did have a silent agreement like that. We dimmed the lights, we all sat around [inaudible 00:29:53] a perfect stack of microfiber towels in the middle of the circle, and we all held hands and said an incantation to summon Scott.
Molly:
Yes.
Matthew:
The Cthulhu like founder of Scott Paper Products.
Molly:
Great. Okay. I'm going to talk a little bit now.
Matthew:
Please.
Molly:
So, yeah-
Matthew:
Oh man, I just had so much phlegm in my mouth when I said that.
Molly:
So, I have tried to go without paper towels. Sometimes when we run out of paper towels, especially lately when we're kind of dealing with a shortage of paper towels, when we've run out, I've been like, "Okay, this is it, can I make it? Let's see if we can make it a couple of days without paper towels." But then, like you, I start noticing all the gross things that I don't actually want to see on my cloth towel, or have in my washing machine.
Matthew:
Right.
Molly:
And I go out and I buy paper towels again. So, anyway, I use them for... If I'm cleaning the stovetop for instance, I think they alternate equally between using a scrubber sponge, a paper towel, and some cleaning spray, or sometimes... Do you ever do this? When you have a kitchen towel that is just about ready to go in the laundry, maybe you've been using it for a few days, or a week, or whatever, I will sometimes use that then with cleaning spray to clean my counters before I put it in the laundry.
Matthew:
I have done this also.
Molly:
Do you ever do that?
Matthew:
Yeah.
Molly:
Yeah. Okay.
Matthew:
Speaking of laundry... Can I say something about laundry that's almost on topic. For quite a while, we were using unscented laundry tablets, and recently, [inaudible 00:31:33] I think, got some Arm & Hammer Baking Soda fresh scent laundry tablets.
Molly:
Yeah.
Matthew:
And the laundry came out, like, oh my god, I forgot how nice it is when your laundry comes out and it smells like... Chemical clean smell. It's great.
Molly:
Yeah. I've been noticing this a lot wearing cloth face masks.
Matthew:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Molly:
If your face mask smells like fresh laundry, that is the best-
Matthew:
Yes.
Molly:
It's possibly the only nice thing about being the wearer of a face mask.
Matthew:
I had a hair in my throat and I just got it out, and I feel so good now.
Molly:
I'm so happy for you. Okay, hold on, Matthew. Wait, I want to say an important thing about paper towels and what I use them for. I know that you and I both get CSA shares, right?
Matthew:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Molly:
Okay. Well, for one thing, it takes forever to properly unpack and put away a CSA share, so that-
Matthew:
Not the way we do it.
Molly:
Do you just throw it in your fridge?
Matthew:
Uh-huh (affirmative).
Molly:
Really? Oh my God. It takes me half an hour washing all the lettuces, Cutting the tops off the carrots, putting the tops in a different bag because we feed them to the guinea pigs.
Matthew:
We don't have guinea pigs, so the whole thing is a lot easier.
Molly:
It's much easier. Okay. But what I wanted to say is that, especially in the month of July, when we were getting a lot of lettuces and other types of greens in our CSA, and I was going through many rounds of washing greens when I would bring the CSA home. What I would do is I would wash them in a salad spinner, dry them as well as they could be dried in the salad spinner, and then lay a clean kitchen towel out on the counter, lay the greens over the kitchen towel in a single layer, roll it up and put that in a plastic bag. Saving plastic bags from the produce section for this purpose.
Molly:
But what I found over doing that with so many CSA greens this summer is that. I think when I store my washed lettuces and greens in a cloth towel, even if the cloth towel was dry to start with and the greens were as dry as they could be, they tend to get soft faster than if I lay them out on paper towels and roll them up, and store them in paper towels.
Matthew:
Interesting.
Molly:
Which I know is wasteful.
Matthew:
I don't have a theory, but I believe you.
Molly:
I wonder if there's just something about the paper towels that... Because paper towels dry really fast, right? So, if the paper towels-
Matthew:
Maybe they wick moisture like some-
Molly:
I think they wick moisture.
Matthew:
... technical shorts I bought recently on sale.
Molly:
Yes. Well, I think they probably wick moisture, and then the paper towels themselves dry better than the cloth towels.
Matthew:
I think so. What I've been doing is, I take the lettuce out of my CSA box and I nestle it into a pair of technical shorts and then put that in the crisper drawer, it works great. And looks great too.
Molly:
I was imagining it... Have you seen Call Me by Your Name?
Matthew:
I have not.
Molly:
OH, bummer. Okay. Well, I was going to reference the scene in-
Matthew:
But many of our listeners have, so go ahead.
Molly:
Oh, well, when Elio goes into Oliver's room and takes his shorts and puts them over his head, and basically just breathes in the air from Oliver's shorts, it just sort of reminded me of nestling a head of lettuce with technical shorts.
Matthew:
Yes, it's just like that, only the head is [crosstalk 00:34:46].
Molly:
It's exactly like that. Only the head of lettuce has a nose.
Matthew:
Same technical shorts over and over doesn't make it sound any more like a real thing, does it?
Molly:
No. Okay, but what I also want to say is that I try to make myself feel slightly better about the amount of paper towels that I'm using to roll up my washed lettuce by reusing the paper towels after I'm done eating the lettuce that was stored in them. Because-
Matthew:
Yeah, you wrote, "Do you ever dry out used paper towels and reuse them?" I mean, if they were only wet with water for instance. And I do not do this.
Molly:
I do when I'm finished eating the head of lettuce I stored in paper towels. Those are perfectly good paper towels. And absolutely, I use them again.
Matthew:
Do you dry them on one of those pasta drying racks, that rotates out and has a bunch of arms?
Molly:
I don't. But I have definitely heard of friends of mine or... I think I remember my grandmother telling stories... Not my grandmother, my mother telling stories about my grandfather drying out paper towels to reuse them.
Matthew:
Oh yeah, this definitely sounds like... Back in the Depression, we would reuse our paper towels 50 times.
Molly:
They didn't have rolled paper towels during-
Matthew:
That's right.
Molly:
[crosstalk 00:36:04] well, part of the depression, 1931.
Matthew:
Right. I mean, that was the depression, most of the '30s, right?
Molly:
Yes, that's true.
Matthew:
So, really, it was right on time.
Molly:
Yes, it's true. So, they brought them out to the market and people immediately started reusing their disposable paper towels.
Matthew:
Exactly.
Molly:
And then, Matthew, hold on, I feel like we also need to talk about then what we do with paper towels, because I don't ever throw them in the garbage.
Matthew:
Oh, no, I compost them.
Molly:
Yeah, we have municipal composting here in Seattle, but it's my understanding that they can also go in backyard compost.
Matthew:
I don't know, one way or the other, but I will take your word for it.
Molly:
Usually, I don't either. I don't either. So, I take it all back.
Matthew:
I have never backyard composted because we don't have a backyard or a front yard. But, I mean, I know... Should you put them in your worm bin? I'm not sure.
Molly:
I don't know either.
Matthew:
I kind of want to have a worm bin, it sounds pretty cool.
Molly:
So, the woman who owned our house before we did was like... I don't know if she was technically a master gardener, she were technical shorts. But I don't know if she was technically a master gardener, but she did amazing things in the yard here, which we have not been able to maintain. But I think that what she left outside our back door is a worm bin. But it is basically like a small coffin sized wooden box with a lid that you can lift off, and it has no bottom.
Matthew:
Oh, kind of the modification I made to my technical shorts.
Molly:
Anyway, maybe some listeners can weigh in and tell me what this box is in my backyard. Maybe I can post a picture of it.
Matthew:
I wanted to tell you based just on the description, that it's like a small coffin with no bottom.
Molly:
Anyway, I should say specify that when we moved into the house, to this day, it is sitting on concrete right outside our back door.
Matthew:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Molly:
And it's empty. It's been empty since we moved in. No tiny dead bodies, or otherwise.
Matthew:
You can get rid of things.
Molly:
I know. And we did. We've gotten rid of a lot of things. But I have occasionally looked at this and said, "It's a worm bin, and I'm going to use it." But I'm not sure. I'm not sure. Because we have municipal composting and so-
Matthew:
I mean, just because you haven't used it in the last nine years or whatever, doesn't mean... You won't start using it now.
Molly:
Shut up, Mathew.
Matthew:
Listeners, it definitely does mean that.
Molly:
Shut up, Matthew. I think after this... Listeners, I record these episodes in my closet, and I think it's time for me to Marie Kondo some stuff actually. I think I'm going to do that when we get off the episode today.
Matthew:
You're going to get rid of the worm bin, or just some stuff in the closet?
Molly:
Just some stuff in my closet. Not the worm bin [crosstalk 00:38:56].
Matthew:
Take some stuff in your closet and put it into a worm bin and see what happens.
Molly:
Okay, great. Okay. I think that we're just about done with this episode.
Matthew:
Worms are going to eat the bottom out of your technical shorts. I think we're 100% done with this episode.
Molly:
Great. All right.
Matthew:
You could find us online at spilledmilkpodcast.com, where we are now posting transcripts of the show. So, starting last week or two weeks ago, I think, you can now get a full transcript of all the things we said.
Molly:
It's so regrettable.
Matthew:
It's going to have the word interesting in it 100 times.
Molly:
It's so regrettable, but also, I'm so glad that we're doing this.
Matthew:
So, regrettable but so accessible. And you can find us on Instagram @spilledmilkpodcast, on Facebook, facebook.com/spilledmilkpodcast, where we want to know, what is your preferred paper towel format? What size of roll? What arrangement of perforations? What's a worm bin?
Molly:
Do you think I have a worm bin?
Matthew:
Do you think Molly has a worm bin?
Molly:
If not, what do you think it is?
Matthew:
I mean, what if it was like a pet coffin? What if your yard... What if there's a Pet Sematary situation going on at your house, and one night... I don't know what happens in Pet Sematary, but it's not good. I'm sure.
Molly:
I read the book back when I was in middle school, and I enjoyed it. But I have to say, Matthew, I console myself with the thought a lot that I've lived in this house for nine years, and so far, nothing has come to haunt me in it.
Matthew:
That is a really good point. So yeah.
Molly:
So far, so good. When Ash gets really freaked out after we watch-
Matthew:
Pet Sematary.
Molly:
Wait, no. Have you been watching Lovecraft Country?
Matthew:
No.
Molly:
Okay, well, for instance-
Matthew:
I bet that's got a lot of Cthulhus.
Molly:
After we watch Lovecraft Country, and then for the next 12 hours Ash is afraid of the dark, I always remind them, "Hey, I've lived in this house for a long time and nothing's haunted me here."
Matthew:
But they're like, "Yeah, yet."
Molly:
Yeah, that is exactly what they're like.
Matthew:
I mean, it's a known fact that watching a scary show attracts ghosts, Cthulhus, and undead pets.
Molly:
But as a kid, did you ever think about this? That if you say, "I don't believe in ghosts," that it triggers the ghost to come and prove you wrong.
Matthew:
Yeah, I think I definitely had that thought.
Molly:
Yeah, it's how things work.
Matthew:
Yeah, we talked about this before probably in the Childhood Fears episode, but I lived in a very creaky house growing up, and every time it creaked at night, I was like, "Oh, this is a murderer coming up the stairs."
Molly:
Yes, exactly.
Matthew:
Yeah.
Molly:
Because it can happen at any time, because the murderers want to prove you wrong-
Matthew:
Yes, exactly.
Molly:
... just when you don't think they're there.
Matthew:
Yeah, right. Yeah. If your parents are like, "Don't worry, that will never happen," right outside the house, a murder is listening with some sort of ear trumpet. And like, "Oh, ho ho ho, as your neighborhood murderer, there's nothing I like more than proving people wrong." This is like an old timey, carny murderer, I guess. Anyway, I thought this episode was over.
Molly:
I love that you said ear trumpet. Okay.
Matthew:
That you're listening to Spilled Milk, available on all your favorite podcasting platforms like iTunes, Stitcher, and Ear Trumpet.
Molly:
Okay, our producer is Abby Cerquitella.
Matthew:
Oh yeah, that's true.
Molly:
And we really want you to jump onto Facebook and answer all of our questions that we raised during this episode. [crosstalk 00:42:28].
Matthew:
We really want that.
Molly:
Please.
Matthew:
See you next time.
Molly:
Please.
Matthew:
Oh, I'm Matthew Amster-Burton.
Molly:
Wait a minute, we didn't do the closing joke.
Matthew:
We did, it was the ear trumpet thing.
Molly:
Oh, okay, I'm Molly Wizenberg. Wait a minute, did you do I'm Mathew Amster-Burton?
Matthew:
And I'm Matthew Amster-Burton.
Matthew:
I love that band, The Dirty Pillowcases.
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